Havergal Brian.

[krummholz]

At least two misstatements in that review... the 7th was his last multi-movement work in the genre (presumably meaning: the symphony)? Almost, but not quite tonal? Seriously? And the author says that he had previously reviewed the Naxos 8, 21, and 26 disc last year, making that first statement even stranger. Ah well, at least a new Brian release is getting some attention... hopefully we shall soon see a review on Gramophone or MusicWeb International.

[cilgwyn]

I'm going to wait until,the only mail order shop I know of;which still sends out paper lists (Classics Direct!) sends me their list with "Naxos Offers",on it. Then I'll send off Ye Olde Cheque & paper letter,outlining my order!! After all,I might need them,if my pc goes down? And there may be Brianites out there,who don't have internet connections?!! And it just makes a change! Like old times?!! Oh,and I must buy one of those stamps you lick,too! Not those horrid,modern,self adhesive ones!!

[vandermolen]

I'm going to wait until,the only mail order shop I know of;which still sends out paper lists (Classics Direct!) sends me their list with "Naxos Offers",on it. Then I'll send off Ye Olde Cheque & paper letter,outlining my order!! After all,I might need them,if my pc goes down? And there may be Brianites out there,who don't have internet connections?!! And it just makes a change! Like old times?!! Oh,and I must buy one of those stamps you lick,too! Not those horrid,modern,self adhesive ones!!

I rejoined the Havergal Brian Society, mainly to be eligible for the Havergal Brian Society Mug to impress visitors to the house. I'm hoping that the new release of Symphony 7 and 16 (two of my favourites) will be available at a reduced rate for members.

[krummholz]

Available for pre-order on amazon.com in the US... impressive for a not-so-well-known composer! The date given is 9 May, which I assume is the release date and not necessarily the date THEY will have it available to ship.

Getting back to the Bailey review of #7... he says one thing with which I agree somewhat: that some features in the music seem put in "for effect and not for any particular musical reason". The author was referring to some of Brian's key changes, and there I would disagree, but passages like the last onslaught of brass and percussion in the 3rd movement do seem to me to come from the world of music theatre rather than the symphony. I have similar thoughts about the 6th symphony, which for all its being a wonderful piece, does seem to these ears to be more of a tone poem and less of a symphony... and of course it was apparently originally intended as an operatic prelude. The 8th, though, blows away all of those reservations for me. Yes it has elements of theatre in it, but they seem to be wedded to the purely musical in a way that works for me 100% as a symphony.

I was pleased to see Bailey's comments about the 16th though. He may not be a Brianite, but he does sound like a sympathetic and perceptive listener.

[relm1]

Available for pre-order on amazon.com in the US... impressive for a not-so-well-known composer! The date given is 9 May, which I assume is the release date and not necessarily the date THEY will have it available to ship.

Getting back to the Bailey review of #7... he says one thing with which I agree somewhat: that some features in the music seem put in "for effect and not for any particular musical reason". The author was referring to some of Brian's key changes, and there I would disagree, but passages like the last onslaught of brass and percussion in the 3rd movement do seem to me to come from the world of music theatre rather than the symphony. I have similar thoughts about the 6th symphony, which for all its being a wonderful piece, does seem to these ears to be more of a tone poem and less of a symphony... and of course it was apparently originally intended as an operatic prelude. The 8th, though, blows away all of those reservations for me. Yes it has elements of theatre in it, but they seem to be wedded to the purely musical in a way that works for me 100% as a symphony.

I was pleased to see Bailey's comments about the 16th though. He may not be a Brianite, but he does sound like a sympathetic and perceptive listener.

HB was definitely blurring the lines between theater and symphony.  Wasn't No. 12 just the prelude from his opera Faust?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I don't see the problem. Ever since Beethoven used a choir in a symphony, you see Romantic composers blurring genre lines constantly. Berlioz combined oratorio and symphony, Liszt invented the tone-poem, Mahler wanted music 'as if heard from afar', conjuring up an imaginary theatre. And Brian 'code-switched', too. I love it!

[Mirror Image]

This is a rather nice photo of Mr. Brian:

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

First time I see it... Thanks, John!

[Mirror Image]

First time I see it... Thanks, John!

You're welcome. It's actually the first-time I've seen it as well as I just did a Google image search many minutes prior to posting this photo.

[krummholz]

I don't see the problem. Ever since Beethoven used a choir in a symphony, you see Romantic composers blurring genre lines constantly. Berlioz combined oratorio and symphony, Liszt invented the tone-poem, Mahler wanted music 'as if heard from afar', conjuring up an imaginary theatre. And Brian 'code-switched', too. I love it!

I didn't say there was a problem with blurring the lines between theatre and symphony. I said that I thought Brian was less successful at it in #7 than in some of his later works. Certainly Mahler did it and it is one of the things that makes Mahler so fascinating! But even in Mahler, the blurring was sometimes less, sometimes more successful. The cowbells, off-stage fanfares and bells in the 6th come straight from the world of music theatre, but it all works as symphony. I would point to Mahler's 3rd as a less successful example. And in Brian, the 12th and 30th are both symphonies that work (for me, anyway) as symphonies even though their language is obviously theatrical in origin.

It doesn't mean that I don't like the 7th, just that I can't approach listening to it in the same way that I approach some of his other works.

@relm1: I think the 12th was somehow connected with Aeschylus, Agamemnon specifically. Something by Aeschylus anyway. From memory (which could be faulty).

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I didn't say there was a problem with blurring the lines between theatre and symphony. I said that I thought Brian was less successful at it in #7 than in some of his later works. Certainly Mahler did it and it is one of the things that makes Mahler so fascinating! But even in Mahler, the blurring was sometimes less, sometimes more successful. The cowbells, off-stage fanfares and bells in the 6th come straight from the world of music theatre, but it all works as symphony. I would point to Mahler's 3rd as a less successful example. And in Brian, the 12th and 30th are both symphonies that work (for me, anyway) as symphonies even though their language is obviously theatrical in origin.

It doesn't mean that I don't like the 7th, just that I can't approach listening to it in the same way that I approach some of his other works.

@relm1: I think the 12th was somehow connected with Aeschylus, Agamemnon specifically. Something by Aeschylus anyway. From memory (which could be faulty).

I get the sense that you're less satisfied with both the Brian 7th and the Mahler 3rd, because the theatricality is less seamlessly integrated into the musical structure. If so, that presupposes an idea of symphonic form which you adhere to. I don't share that idea, perhaps... I say 'perhaps', because I don't think the Mahler 3rd and the Brian 7th are their top works either, although I love them.

[krummholz]

I get the sense that you're less satisfied with both the Brian 7th and the Mahler 3rd, because the theatricality is less seamlessly integrated into the musical structure. If so, that presupposes an idea of symphonic form which you adhere to. I don't share that idea, perhaps... I say 'perhaps', because I don't think the Mahler 3rd and the Brian 7th are their top works either, although I love them.

"Less seamlessly integrated into the musical structure" ... yes, a good way of putting it! I'm not sure that I could articulate my idea of symphonic form in words, though... will have to give that more thought.

[calyptorhynchus]

Interesting discussion of the 7th because from memory (a few months since I've listen to it) the 7th sounds to me more integrated and as having fewer disruptive elements than some of the later symphonies.

I'll wait until I get hold of the new disk. (I'm surprised I haven't heard from the HB Society about getting a copy, with the last new release I had it several weeks before the official release date).

[relm1]

I don't see the problem. Ever since Beethoven used a choir in a symphony, you see Romantic composers blurring genre lines constantly. Berlioz combined oratorio and symphony, Liszt invented the tone-poem, Mahler wanted music 'as if heard from afar', conjuring up an imaginary theatre. And Brian 'code-switched', too. I love it!

I was just thinking if you're going to adapt/blur the lines that's one thing.  Like I am completely fine with RVW Sinfonia Antarctica being derived from a film score as Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky was but they are independent works derived from the same original material.  Similarly Prokofiev's Symphony No. 3 is very much a symphony though the material comes from his opera, The Fiery Angel.  I totally accept that and see it as they had more inspiration than the project required so kept on creating material with it.  Wasn't HB's No. 12 simply the opera prelude renamed?  I might be wrong about that so let me know if I am but that was my recollection. 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I was just thinking if you're going to adapt/blur the lines that's one thing.  Like I am completely fine with RVW Sinfonia Antarctica being derived from a film score as Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky was but they are independent works derived from the same original material.  Similarly Prokofiev's Symphony No. 3 is very much a symphony though the material comes from his opera, The Fiery Angel.  I totally accept that and see it as they had more inspiration than the project required so kept on creating material with it.  Wasn't HB's No. 12 simply the opera prelude renamed?  I might be wrong about that so let me know if I am but that was my recollection.

Brian's Sixth, the Tragica, is presumably a symphony that uses music he composed for an opera he couldn't write for copyright reasons, based on Synge's play Deirdre of the Sorrows. His Twelfth is connected with the opera Agamemnon. And his Thirtieth might be what became of his preoccupation with Sophocles' (amazing!) Oedipus at Colonus.

[vandermolen]

Interesting discussion of the 7th because from memory (a few months since I've listen to it) the 7th sounds to me more integrated and as having fewer disruptive elements than some of the later symphonies.

I'll wait until I get hold of the new disk. (I'm surprised I haven't heard from the HB Society about getting a copy, with the last new release I had it several weeks before the official release date).

+1 on both counts.

[vandermolen]

This is a rather nice photo of Mr. Brian:

Best one I've seen!

[krummholz]

I was just thinking if you're going to adapt/blur the lines that's one thing.  Like I am completely fine with RVW Sinfonia Antarctica being derived from a film score as Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky was but they are independent works derived from the same original material.  Similarly Prokofiev's Symphony No. 3 is very much a symphony though the material comes from his opera, The Fiery Angel.  I totally accept that and see it as they had more inspiration than the project required so kept on creating material with it.  Wasn't HB's No. 12 simply the opera prelude renamed?  I might be wrong about that so let me know if I am but that was my recollection.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of the 6th? I think the 6th (Sinfonia Tragica) was originally the prelude to his opera on Synge's Deirdre of the Sorrows, which as Johan stated he could not finish because of copyright issues. From what I've read, the 6th is literally the opera prelude renamed, as you said of the 12th. The 12th is an entirely different kettle of fish though, I think he said it could be used as an overture to his "curtain-raiser for Strauss's Elektra", by which I assume he means Agamemnon. So it is associated with the opera but I don't think it was actually written as part of it.

[relm1]

Are you sure you aren't thinking of the 6th? I think the 6th (Sinfonia Tragica) was originally the prelude to his opera on Synge's Deirdre of the Sorrows, which as Johan stated he could not finish because of copyright issues. From what I've read, the 6th is literally the opera prelude renamed, as you said of the 12th. The 12th is an entirely different kettle of fish though, I think he said it could be used as an overture to his "curtain-raiser for Strauss's Elektra", by which I assume he means Agamemnon. So it is associated with the opera but I don't think it was actually written as part of it.

Ahh, thanks to you and Johann for correcting.  I was going off memory.

[Maestro267]

So a nearly 20-minute opera prelude? If that's just how long the prelude was, imagine how long the entire opera might have been.