Mahler symphonies - help

[Michel]

Is Abbado's 6 really this good:

• MDT Top Seller SACD of the Year - December 2005
• Gramophone Editors Choice - September 2005
• Telegraph Classical CDs of the Week - August 2005
• MDT Best Seller - June 2005
• Times Classical CD of the Week - June 2005

Price £12.00 (£10.21 ex.VAT)

I suppose these are only really CD's of the week. What is everyones favourite recording of this?

I really like Szell, am about to hear Karajan and would not recommend Chailly - he is too slow, cumbersome and bulky.

[Bunny]

Is Abbado's 6 really this good:

• MDT Top Seller SACD of the Year - December 2005
• Gramophone Editors Choice - September 2005
• Telegraph Classical CDs of the Week - August 2005
• MDT Best Seller - June 2005
• Times Classical CD of the Week - June 2005

Price £12.00 (£10.21 ex.VAT)

I suppose these are only really CD's of the week. What is everyones favourite recording of this?

I really like Szell, am about to hear Karajan and would not recommend Chailly - he is too slow, cumbersome and bulky.

I don't think so.  There are many better 6ths out there.  Abbado put the Scherzo third which is not to my taste.  Ivan Fischer's Mahler 6th is better both for sound and interpretation if you want it in the third position.  Otherwise, there are some really great Mahler 6ths out there such as Gielen's, Mitropoulos's (in mono), Levi's, and saving best for last, Eiji Oué's.  In fact, I think Oué has the best Andante and finale out there (2 hammer blows). 

[BorisG]

I don't think so.  There are many better 6ths out there.  Abbado put the Scherzo third which is not to my taste.  Ivan Fischer's Mahler 6th is better both for sound and interpretation if you want it in the third position.  Otherwise, there are some really great Mahler 6ths out there such as Gielen's, Mitropoulos's (in mono), Levi's, and saving best for last, Eiji Oué's.  In fact, I think Oué has the best Andante and finale out there (2 hammer blows). 

I don't think so either. Jansons also failed. Four sixes I would put up for consideration would be both Bernsteins, Faberman, Barbirolli, and Boulez. No order.

[MishaK]

I don't think so either. Jansons also failed. Four sixes I would put up for consideration would be both Bernsteins, Faberman, Barbirolli, and Boulez. No order.

I think Solti, MTT and the live BPO Rattle should be added to that list, really.

[Bunny]

I think Solti, MTT and the live BPO Rattle should be added to that list, really.

MTT's sixth is probably the most emotional performance he's ever conducted.  It's so much grimmer than anything else in his generally glossy cycle.  I wish it hadn't needed a world changing catastrophe to inspire it.

[Michel]

And if you get the 9th, be sure to get Chailly's on SACD! Amazing. I once mesmerized Mike in my bedroom with it.

[Heather Harrison]

I've been busy lately, so I missed this thread.  Lately, I have been listening a lot to the Third and the Fourth.  They do seem to be good choices (as some others here have indicated).  The Third is quite long, but in my opinion it never gets boring; that is quite an achievement for a work of its scale.  I would recommend getting both at the same time; as you read the story of how the Third came to be, you will find that it is strongly connected to the Fourth - there are even thematic connections between the two.  (The last movement of the Fourth was originally planned to be the last movement of the Third.)

For the Third, I like Chailly's performance best (so far), but I have only explored five performances and there are plenty of others to check out.  For the Fourth, I haven't formed as strong an opinion yet.  Mahler's symphonies are so complex and there are so many details to work out in the performances that it can take some time to compare performances and come up with a favorite.

I would also agree that the song cycles are well worth checking out, and the other early symphony - the Second - should be on your list.  The later symphonies require a bit more effort to get to know, so starting with the earlier work would seem like the way to go.

Heather

[Bunny]

Heather, I love Chailly's 3rd too.   If budget is a concern, Jesus Lopez-Cobos has a great recording of that symphony, too. 

If you are looking for great 4ths, then try the Levi/Atlanta SO; Gatti/RPO; or Inbal/RSO Frankfurt.  There are so many great performances of that shortest symphony.  Avoid the Rattle which is idiosyncratic to the point of perversity, though.  Older entries include the Szell and Reiner recordings which are also very special.

[rubio]

For the Third, I like Chailly's performance best (so far), but I have only explored five performances and there are plenty of others to check out. 

Interesting. Which performances have you heard? Do they include the ones I have - Bertini, Boulez and Abbado/CSO? Probably I will get the Chailly one day myself.

[MishaK]

I once mesmerized Mike in my bedroom with it.

I don't want to know what that means.

[George]

1: Kubelik/BRSO/DG - completely natural and fully at home in the odd folkloristic juxtapositions of this symphony. The BRSO's playing is superlative.

Seconded. I personally suggest that the OP start at the beginning and then proceed with the next one in the cycle. I seem to remember saying that in order to understand a given symphony of his, one must be familiar with those that proceeded it.

[George]

Is Abbado's 6 really this good:

• MDT Top Seller SACD of the Year - December 2005
• Gramophone Editors Choice - September 2005
• Telegraph Classical CDs of the Week - August 2005
• MDT Best Seller - June 2005
• Times Classical CD of the Week - June 2005

Price £12.00 (£10.21 ex.VAT)

Not unless you like a refined Mahler. Me, I dig the Barbirolli recording of this one. It's a barn-burner.

[Sergeant Rock]

Is Abbado's 6 really this good:

No. (Okay, I really don't know. All I do know is that Abbado's Mahler, on record or live, has never moved me much. Correct and polite seem to sum up his interpretations. Perhaps his recent bout with cancer has given him some much needed insight into Mahlerian irony and darkness.)

What is everyones favourite recording of this?
I really like Szell, am about to hear Karajan and would not recommend Chailly - he is too slow, cumbersome and bulky.

Szell and Karajan are two of my favorite Sixths: Szell because I'm both a fanboy and a homeboy. I was in the audience that October evening at Severance and the recording confirms my good memories. Despite what  is an almost Classical reading, he digs deep and the finale is truly terrifying; maybe it's the contrast. You aren't expecting the tragedy here.

Karajan seduces with sheer beauty.

My other favorite is Solti/Chicago...blistering from first note to last and he's the only conductor I've heard who inserts a small agogic distortion before launching the first movement's coda: that makes all the difference.

Bernstein/VPO I worship for that final movement.

I understand what you mean about Chailly but I still find it fascinating for the details he unearths...and for the grim relentlessness. Barbirolli's version, really slow like Chailly, has several other things against it: no first movement repeat; Scherzo third instead of second; and cowbells that sound like they were recorded underwater. Still, I wouldn't want to be without it.

Other Sixths I own but am relatively indifferent to: Haitink, T. Sanderling, Boulez, Bertini, and Zander (I appreciate Zander for his inclusion of the third hammerblow). Bertini I really disliked when I first heard it after acquiring the box set...but can't recall why now. I'll have to listen again; maybe I was just in a foul mood.

Mitropoulos is on my wishlist....Abbado never will be.   

Sarge

[Steve]

I don't think so.  There are many better 6ths out there.  Abbado put the Scherzo third which is not to my taste.  Ivan Fischer's Mahler 6th is better both for sound and interpretation if you want it in the third position.  Otherwise, there are some really great Mahler 6ths out there such as Gielen's, Mitropoulos's (in mono), Levi's, and saving best for last, Eiji Oué's.  In fact, I think Oué has the best Andante and finale out there (2 hammer blows). 

Of all the lauded Mahler interpreters out there, I've just never really been able to appreciate Abbado. Not that its unlistenable either- it just fails to grab my attention. With Karajan, I'm almost lifted from the heels of my shoes at the sheer lyricism of the BPO, while Szell's powerful rendition never ceases to dissapoint. There are few works that come to mind with more outstanding renditions that Mahler's Sixth. The question of whether or not this Cd deserves so much attention really boils down to whether or not he's added anything new. Recently, I did discover a new gold circle recording for this masterpiece- Pierre Boulez. While I'm not particularily fond of his other Mahler renditions, Boulez really combines elements from both of my flagbearers (Szell and Karajan), achieving consistent sound from his orchestra. I find myself going to this recording most often.

As for Abbado- the recording is very good, but does little to add to the conversation. Where a recording like this could merit acknowledgment in other pieces, not for Mahler's Sixth. I'll stick with Boulez, Karajan, and Szell for now.

[Bunny]

No. (Okay, I really don't know. All I do know is that Abbado's Mahler, on record or live, has never moved me much. Correct and polite seem to sum up his interpretations. Perhaps his recent bout with cancer has given him some much needed insight into Mahlerian irony and darkness.)

[Snip]
Sarge

Actually, I like his earliest Mahler cycle with the Chicago SO quite a bit better than the later ones (he seems to have still had some fire in his belly -- excuse the pun), but they are still not among my favorites.  I read somewhere a review which castigated overly emotional Mahler performances and those who prefer them (I guess that's me) as people who use Mahler for therapy (moi, aussi!).  Well, if Mahler is not played for the excitement: the ecstasy and the agony as it were, then what is the point of those so extravagant orchestrations?  Cold Mahler is imo a contradiction.  While our language allows the mental construct of fiery ice or shining darkness, Mahler that is too restrained is boring Mahler. 

Btw, the best Mitropoulous 6th is available in the boxset from the NYPO directly: The Mahler Broadcasts; and the set is ruinously expensive at $225 + s&h!
The other 6th (his last performance with the WDR (Köln Radio) Orchestra, 31 Aug. 1959) which is also excellent is still available, but is getting rarer and rarer.  I wouldn't wait very long to get it.

[Sergeant Rock]

The other 6th (his last performance with the WDR (Köln Radio) Orchestra, 31 Aug. 1959) which is also excellent is still available, but is getting rarer and rarer.  I wouldn't wait very long to get it.

Thanks, Bunny...these things do have a way of disappearing.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

While I'm not particularily fond of his other Mahler renditions, Boulez really combines elements from both of my flagbearers (Szell and Karajan), achieving consistent sound from his orchestra. I find myself going to this recording most often.

I need to listen to Boulez again. I seem to be the only one not getting his Sixth.

Sarge

[Heather Harrison]

Interesting. Which performances have you heard? Do they include the ones I have - Bertini, Boulez and Abbado/CSO? Probably I will get the Chailly one day myself.

(The quote refers to the Third Symphony.)

Third Symphony:  I have Chailly/Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Michael Tilson Thomas/San Francisco Symphony, Abravanel/Utah Symphony, Abbado/Berlin Philharmonic, and Glen Cortese/Manhattan School of Music Symphony Orchestra.  The ones I like best out of these are Chailly, MTT, and Abravanel.

Fourth Symphony:  I have Boulez/Cleveland Orchestra, MTT/San Francisco Symphony, Gatti/RPO, and Bernstein/New York Philharmonic.  I haven't formed as strong an opinion yet on these; I find a lot to like in all of them.  The Bernstein is an old mono LP, so the sound quality isn't the best.  I really should get the CD reissue.

A while back, I started a thread on these; I'll have to get back to it when I get some time.

Heather

[Steve]

(The quote refers to the Third Symphony.)

I have Chailly/Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Michael Tilson Thomas/San Francisco Symphony, Abravanel/Utah Symphony, Abbado/Berlin Philharmonic, and Glen Cortese/Manhattan School of Music Symphony Orchestra.  The ones I like best out of these are Chailly, MTT, and Abravanel.

For the Fourth, I have Boulez/Cleveland Orchestra, MTT/San Francisco Symphony, Gatti/RPO, and Bernstein/New York Philharmonic.  I haven't formed as strong an opinion yet on these; I find a lot to like in all of them.  The Bernstein is an old mono LP, so the sound quality isn't the best.  I really should get the CD reissue.

A while back, I started a thread on these; I'll have to get back to it when I get some time.

Heather

How does the Abbado compare with the Bernstein?

[PerfectWagnerite]

How does the Abbado compare with the Bernstein?

Which Abbado and Bernstein? You are talking about this one?



versus this one?


(I don't have Bernstein's later DG Mahler 3rd - the only symphony from his later DG remake that I don't have)

There is no comparison. Abbado is much too refined for my taste. The opening horn uniso is way too broad and the whole movement never quite sounds raw enough for me. THe final movement is fabulous though - give credit to those Viennese strings.

Bernstein's SONY Mahler 3rd is a classics in every sense. I would rank it right up there with Chailly as the best I have heard.