All other composers are inferior to Beethoven

[PerfectWagnerite]

Well I am not going to pit the Jupiter against the Eroica but suffice to say I think the Jupiter is one of the most complex piece of music I have heard. I am not musically educated enough to know whether the fugato section in the finale is invertible or not from hearing but just by listening I can tell there is a lot of stuff happening at once. I can listen to that movement 10x in a roll and yet not absorbed most of the musical ideas. So I don't mind the repeat at all.

[karlhenning]

Also I was not joking that I feel the fugue is the weakest movement of the work. I am not the only person to have realised this . . . .

Well, you feel what you feel, Rod.  None of the four movements of the K.551 are at all weak.  "Realized" is entirely the wrong word.  And I am not the only person amused no end by your fatuity in pronouncing anything in the mature Mozart symphonies "weak."

[karlhenning]

Laughing at me??

Oh, yes, yes, indeed.

So sorry this is how you had to find out, Rod.

[M forever]

Idiot?? That's not a nice thing to say. Laughing at me?? Laughing about what? That I rate the Eroica above the Jupiter? Most people I know think the same so I'm not sure what the trouble is here. I think the issue for you is that you simply cannot handle this opinion. You think I worry about things like that?

Probably not, since idiots live in their very own, very little world (I think that's actually part of the definition of the word). Comparing two pieces of music, such as these two, in that way however is completely idiotic to begin with (that's why I know you are an idiot, it's not an insult, just a simple observation). There is no "opinion" there for me to "handle" or not. But that wasn't my question anyway. My question was, why does a complete musical ignoramus like you feel the need to trumpet out nonsense like that on an internet forum and act the village fool? Don't you have anything better to do?

BTW, did you know that monkeys peel bananas from the other end (not the one with the "handle", but from the end with the tip)?

[Gurn Blanston]

Since it is impossible to prove that one of these works is musically superior to the other, anyone with in depth knowledge of music wouldn't even waste his time trying. They are simply 2 great pieces of music.



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Now playing:
April 5, 1803 - Royal PO / Previn  Ax - Bia 337 Op 37 Concerto #3 in c for Piano 3rd mvmt - Rondo: Allegro

[knight66]

Please let's not wade further into personal insult. It is one thing to describe the behaviour, another to apply it to an individual. People can draw their own conclusions; and will.

Mike

[greg]

Probably not, since idiots live in their very own, very little world (I think that's actually part of the definition of the word). Comparing two pieces of music, such as these two, in that way however is completely idiotic to begin with (that's why I know you are an idiot, it's not an insult, just a simple observation). There is no "opinion" there for me to "handle" or not. But that wasn't my question anyway. My question was, why does a complete musical ignoramus like you feel the need to trumpet out nonsense like that on an internet forum and act the village fool? Don't you have anything better to do?

BTW, did you know that monkeys peel bananas from the other end (not the one with the "handle", but from the end with the tip)?

that was so good, man......

i hope Sydney replies back. Keep it coming! 

[PerfectWagnerite]

BTW, did you know that monkeys peel bananas from the other end (not the one with the "handle", but from the end with the tip)?

Yeah, I know that. But I don't get the joke.

[greg]

Yeah, I know that. But I don't get the joke.

monkeys are stupid so they peel the wrong end and probably get banana pieces all over the place.... he's saying Sydney is a monkey, i guess.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

monkeys are stupid so they peel the wrong end and probably get banana pieces all over the place.... he's saying Sydney is a monkey, i guess.

The person called 'an idiot' here is Rod Corkin, Greg, not Sydney Grew...

[longears]

I heartily enjoyed the non-sequitor.

[BachQ]

Please let's not wade further into personal insult.

What about non-personal insults?

[(poco) Sforzando]

suffice to say I think the Jupiter is one of the most complex piece of music I have heard. I am not musically educated enough to know whether the fugato section in the finale is invertible or not

"Trust me," (as they say) it is. But allow me to explain, as it bears on the discussion. I assume you know counterpoint is the art of combining musical lines. In invertible counterpoint, a melody and bass line are designed so that the melody can serve equally well as the bass line and vice versa. This is challenging enough for a composer in itself, but multiple inverted lines are even more difficult. In the last, unfinished fugue from The Art of Fugue, Bach writes passages in quadruple invertible counterpoint. What Mozart does in the celebrated Jupiter fugato is to pluck five of the principal melodic ideas heard already in the finale and show, totally unexpectedly, that each one of them can be used as melody or bass to all the others. Meanwhile the inner parts keep the other three melodic strands in play, so that at any time you're hearing five pieces of melody simultaneously - all sounding both independent and interdependent. If you'd like to see an outline of the various permutations, Google "invertible counterpoint mozart jupiter zaslaw" for a table taken from Neal Zaslaw's "The Compleat Mozart."

That's what I mean by the "fireworks" that I admire gushingly and fawningly.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

But over the years I have yet to observe a consensus impression whereby the Jupiter was rated a superior work to the Eroica.

Consensus is the devil. Isn't that what you've been preaching to us for ages now, Rod? Bach vs. Handel and all that?

But now, suddenly, when it suits you you use it as a crutch to bolster your own position.

Shame...

[jochanaan]

If I could be serious for just another moment:

Fair enough. I've heard some renditions of the Jupiter finale go beyond 13 mins. But even at a swifter 11+ mins there was simply not enough in this music to hold my attention for that period of time. But in my opinion even at 6+ mins there are much better fugues available than this. I sometime wonder what people are listening to out there.

Is it possible that you've never heard a great performance of this symphony?  I've heard some Jupiter recordings that leave me cold or shaking my head in confusion.  However, in my favorite one (Daniel Barenboim leading the English Chamber Orchestra in the 1970s), there's plenty of musical meat to hold my attention.  And he takes the repeats in the last movement, obviously finding, with others, that the music is complex enough it needs a second hearing so the audience can grasp it.  (I say "obviously" because Barenboim doesn't take the repeats in the first two movements--a clear exhibition of personal taste rather than strict historical authenticity.)  I also like the old Fritz Reiner/Chicago Symphony reading, which goes almost at "HIP" tempos, considerably faster than Barenboim's.

But is it better than Beethoven?  Is an apple tastier than an orange?

[M forever]

Yeah, I know that. But I don't get the joke.

There was no joke there.

[Scriptavolant]

I did a search on the word "sforzando" in this forum, and this quotation fit the bill. The original author is one Brian Rein, a participant here.

Of course you take "sforzando" in musical terms. Nevertheless, the Italian equivalent of someone nicknamed "sforzando" could be something like Mr. "straining" or "forcing". So not particularly Romantic 

[Rod Corkin]

The person called 'an idiot' here is Rod Corkin, Greg, not Sydney Grew...

It's so easy to get you guys to spout out your usual vitriolic crap I almost get a kick out of it. You guys obviously insult so many people members get confused about who is being insulted next. 

Believe me I am laughing at you guys too. You think I have forgotten who you are what what you are? You only get this at unmoderated sites like GMG (and please no-one contradict me on this, have some self respect). But you guys in question are so dim you can't even tell when I am mocking you too. GMG is so stuffed with old cronies it's laughable, you wouldn't last 5 minutes at my site, because people can express any musical opinion they like there without interference from local 'bully boys'. Nobody can say anything here without your mothball stench hanging over it.

But still, none of your moronic bitching will change the fact that Beethoven is simply in a higher artistic league than Mozart. Neither will it degrade the generally accepted place of the Eroica as the greatest ever symphony (if we except the 9th as a genre on its own). It is you guys who are out touch with the popular consensus. I find it odd that for once I find myself towing a 'status quo' line, but hey, the masses don't always get it wrong.

It's New Year soon, don't be so grumpy. Deal with it boys, just deal with it...

[knight66]

Deal with boys, just deal with it...

I think what you need to deal with; though never will, is that you are generally wrongheaded in your extreme opinions. So often in the past I asked you to say what you think is great about Beethoven and Handel. Give me information I don't have. But your default setting is to trash other equally great composers.

Your GI, (general ignorance), has been fully exposed in your remarks about Mozart's Jupiter Symphony. I learned something there from the poster who took trouble to analyse the music rather than, as you do, just spew over other composers; in the hope that the only ones remaining unbesmirched would be your two favourites.

I remember one of your posts where you proclaimed, 'I put my music where my mouth is.' An excellent idea, since your mouth seems now only capable of spitting out the old mantras and denigration.

Mike

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

It's so easy to get you guys to spout out your usual vitriolic crap I almost get a kick out of it. You guys obviously insult so many people members get confused about who is being insulted next. 

Don't count me among the 'boys', Rod. I don't like calling people 'idiots'. It's all relative, a gliding scale. One man's idiot is the next man's savant. The only thing I would suggest is that genius, happily for us, is more abundant than you think, and that you're robbing yourself of some extraordinary musical experiences in your single-minded veneration. That's all.

Jez.