The Worst First!

[karlhenning]

. . . namely that Abraham (one of our foremost authorities on Russian music remember) stated that Shtaynberg knocked the symphony into shape.

It would have been to Abraham's credit to retract that unalloyed balderdash;  that he never did retract it, does not concern us.

[jochanaan]

Of course the per-centage is not found in Abraham; it comes from our own two ears. There is nothing remotely mischievous about our own ears!

Have you not heard, perhaps, Shostakovich's Fourth?  Very imaginative and masterful, and much in the "vein" of the First.  Or the Tenth or the Fourteenth, great tragic masterworks?  Or the G minor Piano Quintet, the Opus 67 Piano Trio, or the Eighth Quartet?  These works and many, many others show that the First was no fluke.

[Sydney Grew]

Have you not heard, perhaps, Shostakovich's Fourth?  Very imaginative and masterful, and much in the "vein" of the First.  Or the Tenth or the Fourteenth, great tragic masterworks?  Or the G minor Piano Quintet, the Opus 67 Piano Trio, or the Eighth Quartet?  These works and many, many others show that the First was no fluke.

The Member is fortunate to be able to find something in Shostacowitch's later works to amuse him; we on the other hand are obliged to confess that we find in them nothing either to hold our attention or to attract our admiration. As Gerald Abraham - a sound judge - once wrote, "Shostacowitch cannot write even a moderately good tune." We do not know what he thought of the Fourth, but he described the Third Symphony as "mob-oratorical and hysterical, deficient in musical logic." Musical logic - that is after all the great thing in composition is it not?

Anyway let us adhere to the subject of this thread, which is First symphonies; otherwise there is a great risk of the entire thread's being shuffled off to the coffee-bar department.

[knight66]

Of course the per-centage is not found in Abraham; it comes from our own two ears. There is nothing remotely mischievous about our own ears!

..........that Abraham (one of our foremost authorities on Russian music remember) stated that Shtaynberg knocked the symphony into shape. And Abraham, who did not expire until 1988, never as far as we are aware retracted that statement. He was in a position to know and we should trust his authority.

Your ears tell you that only 20% of the symphony was composed by Shostakovitch? Which bars belong to him? Can you even nail 50% of the specific bars as being by Maximilian Steinberg? You seem to have taken the merest hint and extrapolated it by using your ears, then you put it forward as having some kind of authority. Next we will be getting theory about 'Vibrational Fields'. There seems not to be much recorded music by Maximilian Steinberg, does that mean you are using manuscript analysis to get to understand his style and ability? What sources have you used to build up the knowedge that enables you to name so much of that symphony to be by Steinberg?

Knight

[quintett op.57]

Has anyone even heard Haydn's First? It is tempting to dismiss it as something only a completist would seek out, but I haven't heard it.

From what I know, Haydn's 1st symphony is n°37, n°1 comes next.

I find Dvorak and Elgar's 1st are very find works

[karlhenning]

Elgar was fined £50 and jugged for 30 days without the option.

[JoshLilly]

Which Haydn are you talking about?

With Joseph Haydn, I've listened to it, and have a recording. #1 is from 1759, and though the numbering of his symphonies is a chronological mess to some extent, it appears this really is his first. It's a 3-movement work, one that I really like. I would have bet money on a blind listen that it was by Leopold Mozart, or maybe Ignaz Holzbauer. Of all his 106 extant symphonies, there's not a one that I don't like at least a little. What a cornucopia!

I haven't yet finished a complete set of Michael Haydn symphonies (available on cpo), and as far as I know, have never even heard the first.

[Haffner]

Elgar

Not one of my favorites (one of my least in fact). But I actually fell asleep listening to Mozart's earliest (known) Symphonies, and both J. and M. Haydn's earliest known as well.

[BachQ]

Not one of my favorites (one of my least in fact). But I actually fell asleep listening to Mozart's earliest (known) Symphonies, and both J. and M. Haydn's earliest known as well.

We forgive the 8-yr-old Wolfie for having failed to compose a jaw-dropping blockbuster symphony ........

[jwinter]

We forgive the 8-yr-old Wolfie for having failed to compose a jaw-dropping blockbuster symphony ........

Speak for yourself.  What an untalented little twerp. 

[Don]

The Member is fortunate to be able to find something in Shostacowitch's later works to amuse him; we on the other hand are obliged to confess that we find in them nothing either to hold our attention or to attract our admiration. As Gerald Abraham - a sound judge - once wrote, "Shostacowitch cannot write even a moderately good tune." We do not know what he thought of the Fourth, but he described the Third Symphony as "mob-oratorical and hysterical, deficient in musical logic." Musical logic - that is after all the great thing in composition is it not?

Grew's views about Shostakovich remind me of the corkster regarding Bach and Mozart - extremist and unreasonable. 

[JoshLilly]

How can anyone's personal taste be unreasonable?

[Don]

How can anyone's personal taste be unreasonable?

It can't.  But Grew and a few others trot out their personal taste as being grounded in good sense and musical insight.

[BachQ]

What an untalented little twerp. 

No doubt.  Afterall, we were writing operas by age seven ........

[karlhenning]

How can anyone's personal taste be unreasonable?

Personal taste, is not a matter of unreasonable.

Imagining that the Shostakovich First is "70% Steinberg," is the high-pitched squeak of a loon.

[Valentino]

You guys just made my day. Now I can go to bed laughing.

Elgar! Elgar! Elgar! And Wolfgang, of course.

[BachQ]

You guys just made my day. Now I can go to bed laughing.

Elgar! Elgar! Elgar! And Wolfgang, of course.

We aim to please .........

[Haffner]

We forgive the 8-yr-old Wolfie for having failed to compose a jaw-dropping blockbuster symphony ........

You think  ?

[71 dB]

Beethoven's first is the worst first for me. I really find it extremely boring.

[Kullervo]

Which Haydn are you talking about?

Joseph. Nobody cares about Michael.