And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020

[drogulus]

The job of bureaucracy is to enforce rules. Meaning to obstruct and delay.   Government is always an inefficient operation. Which is why it should be used only when no other alternative can work.

     It does all that and more. "Always inefficient" is meaningless. What government does is too vital to be measured by how efficiently it would be done by institutions that don't exist, never did, and never will. Efficiency can only be judged on a comparative basis, not by fantasies of non-public public health, defense, or money system governance.

    I do the whys and wherefores without fantasy input. The desire that government improve its function is a necessary if not sufficient condition for it to happen. Solution hatred is not a path to improvement of anything. Wishing for an omnicompetent self generating private sector is a dream. Trying to make it real turns it into a nightmare.

[SimonNZ]

BLM only talks about the impact on minority communities, as if police brutality never occurs on non minorities.

Why is talking about the impact on black communities a problem? The other conversations about the police are taking place, some with equally specific focus on other issues, some more general. The all come together or feed into a larger narrative.

And BLM have never suggested or behaved as if police brutality never occurs on non minorities.

[JBS]

     It does all that and more. "Always inefficient" is meaningless. What government does is too vital to be measured by how efficiently it would be done by institutions that don't exist, never did, and never will. Efficiency can only be judged on a comparative basis, not by fantasies of non-public public health, defense, or money system governance.

    I do the whys and wherefores without fantasy input. The desire that government improve its function is a necessary if not sufficient condition for it to happen. Solution hatred is not a path to improvement of anything. Wishing for an omnicompetent self generating private sector is a dream. Trying to make it real turns it into a nightmare.

If you want to critique libertarian ideas, you need to at least understand them.
In short, there are loads of things that government does nowadays that don't qualify as vital, and using government to do them always means an inferior result. 

[JBS]

Why is talking about the impact on black communities a problem? The other conversations about the police are taking place, some with equally specific focus on other issues, some more general. The all come together or feed into a larger narrative.

And BLM have never suggested or behaved as if police brutality never occurs on non minorities.

My impression from hearing BLM advocates on TV and in print is that your last sentence is incorrect. Or at least, that BLM only cares about its impact on minority communities, and is interested only in a narrative that centers on the results of racism. They treat the "other conversations" as diversions to be shut down because those conversations conflict with their preferred narrative.

[drogulus]

If you want to critique libertarian ideas, you need to at least understand them.
In short, there are loads of things that government does nowadays that don't qualify as vital, and using government to do them always means an inferior result. 

     That is what everyone understands about libertarian ideas, exactly that. These are vaporware claims no one could test. The programs we want are justified by the results we get without vague suppositions about what's vital or inferior. We'll never know how inferior our public sector is to its fantasy private sector counterpart.

     The only way to measure vital and inferior is to see what happens when sociopaths undermine government to prove how bad it is. I reckon sabotage wouldn't be necessary if people would stop wanting the services they get.

      I think your problem is not the government but the people who vote for it.

[SimonNZ]

My impression from hearing BLM advocates on TV and in print is that your last sentence is incorrect. Or at least, that BLM only cares about its impact on minority communities, and is interested only in a narrative that centers on the results of racism. They treat the "other conversations" as diversions to be shut down because those conversations conflict with their preferred narrative.

From what I've read I think that's an unfair and false representation of their fight.

Can you give examples of that last sentence?

[JBS]

From what I've read I think that's an unfair and false representation of their fight.

Can you give examples of that last sentence?

Sorry, no. I say it based on watching them over the years on TV.
And just to be clear, that means representatives of BLM linked movements and allies on CNN, MSNBC, etc.  Not their opponents on Fox.

[71 dB]

People die because of bureaucrats.  People are going to die here in the US because bureaucrats were bureaucrats, and threw bureaucratic obstacles in the way of testing for COVID19.  And you want those same bureaucrats to control everyone's health care!

Corona virus situation is special and all countries are struggling to handle it regardless of the healthcare system. Bureaucrats are not the problem. For profit healthcare is a problem. Lack of paid sick leave is a problem. Trump's incompetence is a problem...

Medicare for all means a bureaucracy that will supervise poor to mediocre health care for everyone, paid for by taxes, premiums,  copays, deductibles, etc.  Get this into your head; Bernie's plan has no chance of becoming reality. Even in a Democratic controlled Congress, it won't pass.

Let's assume you are right. Current system doesn't cover everybody. Medicare for all is poor care. That's sucks. We need good care for everybody and other countries manage to do it while the US according to you just can't. Getting to Moon? Yeah, Can do! Good healthcare for all? Sorry, impossible...

BTW, Medicare for all would be paid for ONLY by taxes. There would not be premiums,  copays, deductibles, etc. That's why it would SAVE money for most people.

You are obsessed with the idea of oligarchs and corporations controlling everyone's life.  Well, the Progressive agenda is devoted to the idea of bureaucrats controlling the lives of everyone.  Which means it's elitist, not populist, and just as anti-freedom as any money based oligarchy. If you were truly concerned with defeating the power of the elites, you'd be attacking progressivism, not defending it.

Well, oligarchs don't give healthcare to everyone, do they? Healthcare is not something you can live without, is it? So it's pretty important everyone has it. Other countries figured that out decades ago and act accordingly. Progressives are not about bureaucrats controlling the lives of everyone. Progressives are for better life for people, about more fair society. If it takes bureaucrats to get there then bureaucrats it shall be. A bureaucrat telling you you can visit any doctor is hardly controlling you more than an oligarch saying you can only visit doctors of the network or maybe no doctor at all. Bureaucrat saying you can leave a job you hate and still have healthcare is hardly offering less freedom than oligarchs saying you must stay or lose healthcare.  How oppressed are you by the fire department bureaucrats? The fire department is paid for by taxes in a "socialistic" manner, just like medicare for all would be. So it's as bad and bureaucratic, isn't it?

[71 dB]

My impression from hearing BLM advocates on TV and in print is that your last sentence is incorrect. Or at least, that BLM only cares about its impact on minority communities, and is interested only in a narrative that centers on the results of racism. They treat the "other conversations" as diversions to be shut down because those conversations conflict with their preferred narrative.

This is like saying Tiger Woods only cares about Golf as a sport, because that's the only thing you ever see him play!

[JBS]

Corona virus situation is special and all countries are struggling to handle it regardless of the healthcare system. Bureaucrats are not the problem. For profit healthcare is a problem. Lack of paid sick leave is a problem. Trump's incompetence is a problem...

Let's assume you are right. Current system doesn't cover everybody. Medicare for all is poor care. That's sucks. We need good care for everybody and other countries manage to do it while the US according to you just can't. Getting to Moon? Yeah, Can do! Good healthcare for all? Sorry, impossible...

BTW, Medicare for all would be paid for ONLY by taxes. There would not be premiums,  copays, deductibles, etc. That's why it would SAVE money for most people.

Well, oligarchs don't give healthcare to everyone, do they? Healthcare is not something you can live without, is it? So it's pretty important everyone has it. Other countries figured that out decades ago and act accordingly. Progressives are not about bureaucrats controlling the lives of everyone. Progressives are for better life for people, about more fair society. If it takes bureaucrats to get there then bureaucrats it shall be. A bureaucrat telling you you can visit any doctor is hardly controlling you more than an oligarch saying you can only visit doctors of the network or maybe no doctor at all. Bureaucrat saying you can leave a job you hate and still have healthcare is hardly offering less freedom than oligarchs saying you must stay or lose healthcare.  How oppressed are you by the fire department bureaucrats? The fire department is paid for by taxes in a "socialistic" manner, just like medicare for all would be. So it's as bad and bureaucratic, isn't it?

You need to learn to read. Because you obviously failed to understand me when I said Bernie's promises of no premiums, no fees, visit any doctor you want, are fantasy, and anything actually passed into law won't have that? Bernie's bureaucrats will be telling us which doctors we can't go to, which drugs we can't take, and how much we have to pay....

[71 dB]

You need to learn to read. Because you obviously failed to understand me when I said Bernie's promises of no premiums, no fees, visit any doctor you want, are fantasy, and anything actually passed into law won't have that? Bernie's bureaucrats will be telling us which doctors we can't go to, which drugs we can't take, and how much we have to pay....

You can't tell Bernie his plans. You have some thoughs about what it would be. I hate these discussions because everything means different things to people. There is agreement about nothing.

Bernie: How about we have the same system Canada has?
You: Fantasy
Bernie: Canada did it thou...
You: Bureaucrats!

Well, Bernie has better plan than Canada has. Canada lacks dental. You NEVER recognize the US system is TO make profit. Never. You are a hack what fantasy is it to do the same things other countries do if they do it better? IT*S common sense

[Karl Henning]

In Biden-Sanders debate, solutions win and revolution loses

[71 dB]

In Biden-Sanders debate, solutions win and revolution loses

Bernie Sanders has the solutions. Sometimes solutions need to be revolutionary like in the case of US. Oligarcy must be ended and defintion that's revolution. Jow Biden's healthcare plan leaves 10 million people uninsured. That's not solution. It's "nothing will fundamentally change" politics. Real solutions give everyone healthcare and the man with those plans is Senator Bernard Sanders.

I can't anwer to your question in the "zombie" thread because it's locked so I say this: Americans believe in Biden's electability because they have been brainwashed to think so by the corporate media. It's not based on any facts and the sad thing is it's self-fulfilling itself when people go behind Biden because they believe he is the strongest to beat Trump even when they agree more with Bernie's policies. It's cracy how old people vote against their own good. Biden will struggle against Trump, because Trump is a fake populist and he is a corporate centrists. What does Biden have to offer people in the rust belt? Yep. Nothing. Bernie has a lot to offer and is very strong. Even if Biden miraculously won Trump, the US has a "nothing will fundamentally change" president suffering from cognitive decline who won't address properly the things that need major fixing from healthcare to climate change. Bernie would be so much better, but it seems the oligarchs win again and the rest of the planet loses. Fuck that!

[Herman]

Americans believe in Biden's electability because they have been brainwashed to think so by the corporate media. It's not based on any facts and the sad thing is it's self-fulfilling itself when people go behind Biden because they believe he is the strongest to beat Trump

There is a lot to this. Except, I don't think Bernie is poised much better to beat Trump.

It's just mind-boggling that a better candidate, younger and stronger, could not be found.

[Mirror Image]

Looks like Biden is going to get the nomination which all of us saw coming.

[drogulus]

Bernie Sanders has the solutions. Sometimes solutions need to be revolutionary like in the case of US.

     For all his rhetoric to the contrary, Sanders is not proposing anything that is different from social democratic norms. No matter how you package it, any country that has the means to put the public into public health does so because no alternative exists. All the alternatives are inside the tent, one form or another of "everyone is insured". The form is less important than doing it. Everything else is secondary, and though I have ideas about how it might be done, they are what's called "path dependent", not measures of absolute value on a scale no one has any idea how to use.

     

[Karl Henning]

One great irony is how our resident brainwashee is so obsessed with saying that anyone who disagrees with him suffers from his pathetic plight.

[Karl Henning]

     For all his rhetoric to the contrary, Sanders is not proposing anything that is different from social democratic norms. No matter how you package it, any country that has the means to put the public into public health does so because no alternative exists. All the alternatives are inside the tent, one form or another of "everyone is insured". The form is less important than doing it. Everything else is secondary, and though I have ideas about how it might be done, they are what's called "path dependent", not measures of absolute value on a scale no one has any idea how to use.

     

I see your point, though (as you know) optics matter.

[71 dB]

There is a lot to this. Except, I don't think Bernie is poised much better to beat Trump.

It's just mind-boggling that a better candidate, younger and stronger, could not be found.

Bernie is strong against Trump, because he is a true populist and therefore can beat a fake populist. Bernie's weakness is the Democratic Party who hate him and do everything to bring him down, because Bernie serves the 99 % instead of the 1 %. That's why DNC rather have 4 more years of Trump than Bernie in the White House. If corporate media gave fair publicity to all candidates, Bernie would have won the 2016 primary with a landslide. DNC needed superdelegates to stop Bernie. This time around they have been using reduced publicity strategy with Biden so that ignorant Americans would not find out how bad candidate he is (horrible policies + cognitive decline). In other words in 2016 people knew they hate Hillary Clinton, but now they don't know they will hate Biden too once they know the truth about him. The question is do they realize the truth in time and turn this for Bernie.

Tulsi Gabbard could have been a great younger candidate, but corporate media totally ignored her so her campaign got nowhere. Her proposition of Yang's UBI to deal with the Corona virus crisis is great.

[71 dB]

Looks like Biden is going to get the nomination which all of us saw coming.

The establishment is spoon-feeding Biden to people, but many older CNN/MSNBC-brainwashed Americans are too ignorant to even realize it...