USA Politics

[Jo498]

This is not a bad idea, but your alternative names are still problematic.  The word "olympic" recalls Ancient Greece.  That is, it recalls old, dead white people.  It must go.  Clearly, "Washington" must go, but DC is actually much, much worse.

D.C. was a bad oversight I concede; it's a stupid name anyway. Much better to call it DF for "District of the Federation" like in Mexico. The Northwestern state could be called just this, but there is Alaska which is further north and west. Alaska has a nice native sounding name it might be allowed to keep, though.

[Jo498]

Maybe if more people knew how radical some of BLM and Antifa are they wouldn't support their terrorism.

It seems hard to deny that these movements use the ambiguity of their names. Antifa is on the one hand, if read as simply being against fascism, the boring trivial consensus of almost all current governments in developed countries and of most of their citizens, so who would want to disagree with them and align themselves with Mussolini and Franco? (Admittedly, the strawman is also a bit visible there because 1920s style fascism has virtually no political power nowadays, so it would hardly be a worthy target.) But it is also a far-left radicalist group prone to violence, very few people want to align themselves with.

[JBS]

It's not an either/or scenario.

All lives matter: white, black, brown. Any innocent person being murdered should be seen as a tragedy. What you're basically saying is "only black lives matter."

If you truly think that you should be supporting a movement whose goal is stopping police from killing people when they don't need to.

[drogulus]

     I wouldn't believe Jewish Lives Matter would mean other lives don't. It would mean Jewish lives matter like other lives do, and when the context is supplied by the history of anti-Semitism, there's no reason to object to it. I take the same view about any group under threat by the police or the government or extremist groups with their "will not replace us" marches. If I belonged to a threatened group like that I'd march for it. I'd say our lives matter. As it happens, because I understand these simple facts, I have no problem saying Black Lives Matter. So, I do.

It's not an either/or scenario.

All lives matter: white, black, brown. Any innocent person being murdered should be seen as a tragedy. What you're basically saying is "only black lives matter."

     That's what you want to hear. Hundreds of thousands of people of all races are not marching for "only Black Lives Matter".

[JBS]

Violent mob scene in Colorado.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JoshuaPotash/status/1277273696365879296

[Herman]

Just a couple of points before moving on:

'All lives matter' is nothing more than a meaningless statement meant to take attention from the fact that it is black people in general who are getting their asses shot for being black. It means nothing, which is exactly what it is intended to mean. Polish Lives Matter, or Italian Lives Matter: certainly they do, and as soon as the power of the state is directed towards killing Polish and Italian immigrants (unlikely for now, since they are mostly white), then statements like that could come into general use.

'Antifa' doesn't exist, OK?  It is a construct of groups like QAnon, who have created it as the bogeyman of the Deep State, something else which doesn't exist. You will never see 'antifa' captured or defeated, because it doesn't exist. There is no organization, no manifesto, no leader, nothing. I would explain it more clearly but since it doesn't exist, that's rather difficult.

Are there people who believe that the extreme Right needs to be fought against? Hell yes!  Have they formed together into a group which could only be described as a Left Wing militia, the equivalent of the 3 Percenters, Arizona Border Recon, Hutaree, Idaho Light Foot Militia, Michigan Militia, Militia of Montana, Missouri Citizens Militia, Missouri Militia, New York Light Foot Militia, Oath Keepers, Ohio Defense Force, Texas Light Foot Militia or any of the other hundreds of Right Wing paramilitary groups in this country? Sadly, no. You will have to find/invent some other bogeyman.

That is all.

In addition I'd say to the addressee: try stopping speaking about "your side / their side" every time.

people aren't boxes. It's mindnumbingly simplistic.

[Karl Henning]

     I wouldn't believe Jewish Lives Matter would mean other lives don't. It would mean Jewish lives matter like other lives do, and when the context is supplied by the history of anti-Semitism, there's no reason to object to it. I take the same view about any group under threat by the police or the government or extremist groups with their "will not replace us" marches. If I belonged to a threatened group like that I'd march for it. I'd say our lives matter. As it happens, because I understand these simple facts, I have no problem saying Black Lives Matter. So, I do.

     That's what you want to hear. Hundreds of thousands of people of all races are not marching for "only Black Lives Matter".

Bingo!

[milk]

Just a couple of points before moving on:

'All lives matter' is nothing more than a meaningless statement meant to take attention from the fact that it is black people in general who are getting their asses shot for being black. It means nothing, which is exactly what it is intended to mean. Polish Lives Matter, or Italian Lives Matter: certainly they do, and as soon as the power of the state is directed towards killing Polish and Italian immigrants (unlikely for now, since they are mostly white), then statements like that could come into general use.

'Antifa' doesn't exist, OK?  It is a construct of groups like QAnon, who have created it as the bogeyman of the Deep State, something else which doesn't exist. You will never see 'antifa' captured or defeated, because it doesn't exist. There is no organization, no manifesto, no leader, nothing. I would explain it more clearly but since it doesn't exist, that's rather difficult.

Are there people who believe that the extreme Right needs to be fought against? Hell yes!  Have they formed together into a group which could only be described as a Left Wing militia, the equivalent of the 3 Percenters, Arizona Border Recon, Hutaree, Idaho Light Foot Militia, Michigan Militia, Militia of Montana, Missouri Citizens Militia, Missouri Militia, New York Light Foot Militia, Oath Keepers, Ohio Defense Force, Texas Light Foot Militia or any of the other hundreds of Right Wing paramilitary groups in this country? Sadly, no. You will have to find/invent some other bogeyman.

That is all.

I don't think saying "all lives matter" is a good strategy because it denies how most people are feeling and its aim is antagonistic. However, at the same time, I think BLM is a religion. The premise is that black people are being killed by a white supremacist structure that doesn't value blacks lives, that subjugates black people. Their remedy is intersectional ideology, to make a space for black transsexual women specifically, and recognize the intersection and hierarchy of exploitation that they say pervades American society and all societies. Whiteness is the ultimate privilege and the expression or unjust power and murder, etc. current western structures must be eliminated starting with the police and continuing with systems of government, law, etc., all built on and from white power.
It's something like that.
Now, if I go on FB and write something like, are you sure these killings are motivated by racism? Or, I'm not sure racism caused these killings. Or, I don't think Racism is the main problem here or that BLM sends the wrong message or that I dislike BLM...Well, a lot of heads are going to explode. People are going to get super mad. Maybe some of my family will unfriend me.
Here's what Brown University decrees:

We write to you today as leaders of this university to express first deep sadness, but also anger, regarding the racist incidents that continue to cut short the lives of black people every day.
The sadness comes from knowing that this is not a mere moment for our country. This is historical, lasting and persistent. Structures of power, deep-rooted histories of oppression, as well as prejudice, outright bigotry and hate, directly and personally affect the lives of millions of people in this nation every minute and every hour. Black people continue to live in fear for themselves, their children and their communities, at times in fear of the very systems and structures that are supposed to be in place to ensure safety and justice.

What if I said on this campus that I needed more convincing to believe that racism is killing black lives? I think it's a religion taken on faith. You cannot question this. What if I said that these incidents in the media don't represent a racist trend? It's akin to standing up in a church and saying, "Jesus did not rise." What if a I said that racism is one problem but so is high black poverty, that high black poverty increases the chances of Blacks coming into contact with police and that the causes of black poverty are a mix of things, not a result of racism alone or mostly, but many other factors?
What if I said BLM is making things worse, telling people they are victims, offering an extreme and divisive and destructive and unacceptable ideology as a solution? Again, that'd be like denying Jesus is lord. I'm not being hyperbolic, I think it's a religious attitude now that you can't question. It's an article of faith that even academic institutions decree just like evangelical colleges make teachers sign articles of faith.

[Todd]

Alaska has a nice native sounding name it might be allowed to keep, though.

Alaska is derived from Inuit, and many places in Alaska retain Native names.  Heck, even Mt McKinley reverted to Denali not too long ago, and no one cared.  (Locals called it Denali anyway.)  There are obviously some unacceptable names in the state - Juneau from a French Imperialist, and Fairbanks and many others from English speaking imperialists - so those obviously need to go. 

Things can get sticky with someone like Chief Joseph here in Oregon.  He also had a Nez Perce name, of course, but the name Joseph has been retained by the Nez Perce, and there are towns and a canyon named after him.  What to do?

Violent mob scene in Colorado.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JoshuaPotash/status/1277273696365879296

One of the violinists sounded like Peter Cropper.  I would have called the police, too.

[Karl Henning]

I don't think saying "all lives matter" is a good strategy because it denies how most people are feeling and it's aim is antagonistic.

Absolutely.

However, at the same time, I think BLM is a religion. The premise is that black people are being killed by a white supremacist structure that doesn't value blacks lives, that subjugates black people.

That premise, in my view, fits the facts.  And a factual premise does not a "religion" make.

[milk]

Absolutely.
That premise, in my view, fits the facts.  And a factual premise does not a "religion" make.

So, you don't think this is contestable? There are some famous studies that give a different picture, namely that blacks are not killed disproportionately?

Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html

Do you think there's a willingness to have a conversation about whether or not there's a real trend in African Americans being killed because of racism? Is it at all possible that that's not true, and that people are reacting in the moment to social media - to the way that social media amplifies one incident, or some incidents, that might not be a trend at all? White people are killed by the police in Minneapolis too. Innocent people. I'm not saying "all lives matter" because I don't like conservative talking points and I'm not aiming to wound anyone.
You see, I think it's a religion because I don't think that the conversation is very likely anymore and I think Brown is following a prescribed script, like an invocation. I don't think the questions I am raising here are really acceptable.
But mainly this: BLM is a whole ideology (I rehearsed it above and I'll not waste space to repeat it here, but BLM is a brand now). It's a dogma. Saying you don't agree with BLM will get you called a racist in many places just like saying Jesus is not Lord at certain points in history would have earned you the title of heathen. 

[JBS]

May I point out what that  headline says?

Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings

There is discernible bias in enforcement.

[Karl Henning]

So, you don't think this is contestable? There are some famous studies that give a different picture, namely that blacks are not killed disproportionately?

Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html

Do you think there's a willingness to have a conversation about whether or not there's a real trend in African Americans being killed because of racism? Is it at all possible that that's not true, and that people are reacting in the moment to social media - to the way that social media amplifies one incident, or some incidents, that might not be a trend at all? White people are killed by the police in Minneapolis too. Innocent people. I'm not saying "all lives matter" because I don't like conservative talking points and I'm not aiming to wound anyone.
You see, I think it's a religion because I don't think that the conversation is very likely anymore and I think Brown is following a prescribed script, like an invocation. I don't think the questions I am raising here are really acceptable.
But mainly this: BLM is a whole ideology (I rehearsed it above and I'll not waste space to repeat it here, but BLM is a brand now). It's a dogma. Saying you don't agree with BLM will get you called a racist in many places just like saying Jesus is not Lord at certain points in history would have earned you the title of heathen. 

By all means, ask the questions. I'd draw a distinction between a brand and a dogma, as well.  There is always a conversation between people pf good faith.  "Saying you don't agree with BLM"  You disagree entirely?  If your disagreement is more nuanced, why not express it with more subtlety?

No, this is not a single incident, it is a pattern, it's the system.

[greg]

Like the person in this video?

https://twitter.com/taggartrearden/status/1276936203745492992?s=21

Lol, stuff like that is probably why I avoid twitter.

[milk]

By all means, ask the questions. I'd draw a distinction between a brand and a dogma, as well.  There is always a conversation between people pf good faith.  "Saying you don't agree with BLM"  You disagree entirely?  If your disagreement is more nuanced, why not express it with more subtlety?

No, this is not a single incident, it is a pattern, it's the system.

OK. Some people taking up the banner of BLM do not even know or understand their webpage or the founding members' stated ideology. Many just don't care because they sincerely limit themselves to protesting what they see as racist brutality and believe the slogan "BLM" makes the point. BLM itself is an ideology that I believe is fundamentally anti-liberal. BLM has obviously become a brand as well. It's dangerous insofar as it's becoming more influential and well-funded.     

[Herman]

Calling BLM is "a religion" is inflammatory language, Limbaugh-style.

The word "religion" is carefully chosen for maximum effect, appealing to "our white systems are going to be replaced" anxieties.

[Daverz]

OK. Some people taking up the banner of BLM do not even know or understand their webpage or the founding members' stated ideology. Many just don't care because they sincerely limit themselves to protesting what they see as racist brutality and believe the slogan "BLM" makes the point. BLM itself is an ideology that I believe is fundamentally anti-liberal. BLM has obviously become a brand as well. It's dangerous insofar as it's becoming more influential and well-funded.   

A few posts ago you were complaining about a writer you felt was ignoring progress on race.  Now you're red-baiting a civil rights group like it's 1950 all over again.

[milk]

A few posts ago you were complaining about a writer you felt was ignoring progress on race.  Now you're red-baiting a civil rights group like it's 1950 all over again.

Yikes. I am not persecuting anybody. BLM has long stated their system of belief. It's not a secret what it's all about. Can we critique it? You can argue it's not an ideology or you can defend what intersectionality means and the dismantling of the white system. Why not do that instead of these accusations? Maybe you'll change my mind?

Calling BLM is "a religion" is inflammatory language, Limbaugh-style.

The word "religion" is carefully chosen for maximum effect, appealing to "our white systems are going to be replaced" anxieties.

It's an interesting accusation to me - someone who's always hated Limbaugh. Actually, I'm not an original. Unfortunately, I didn't come up with this myself. It's John McWhorter I saw talking about what's going on now as a kind of religion. He's an interesting person: a linguist - someone who shows up in the Atlantic. Not too far out of the mainstream. And Black. Go and tell him he's appealing to "our white systems...anxieties."
I'll just quote his Wikipedia page since I find him and his views rather interesting and instructive:

McWhorter characterizes himself as "a cranky liberal Democrat." In support of this description, he states that while he "disagrees sustainedly with many of the tenets of the Civil Rights orthodoxy," he also "supports Barack Obama, reviles the War on Drugs, supports gay marriage, never voted for George Bush and writes of Black English as coherent speech". McWhorter additionally notes that the conservative Manhattan Institute, for which he worked, "has always been hospitable to Democrats."McWhorter has criticized left-wing and activist educators in particular, such as Paulo Freire and Jonathan Kozol. He believes that affirmative action should be based on class rather than race. Political theorist Mark Satin identifies McWhorter as a radical centrist thinker...McWhorter considers that anti-racism has become as harmful a force in the United States as racism itself. According to him, what is holding blacks back is "black attitudes" rather than white racism...In April 2015, McWhorter appeared on NPR and said that the use of the word "thug" was becoming code for "the N-word" or "black people ruining things" when used by whites in reference to criminal activity. He added that use by President Obama and former Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake (for which she later apologized) could not be interpreted in the same way, given that the black community's use of "thug" may positively connote admiration for black self-direction and survival. McWhorter clarified his views in an article in the Washington Post...McWhorter has criticized microaggression and white supremacy theories, and has argued that technology cannot be racist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McWhorter

[Herman]

   It's an interesting accusation to me - someone who's always hated Limbaugh. Actually, I'm not an original. Unfortunately, I didn't come up with this myself.

It wasn't an accusation of you.

I was assuming you had taken this concept from somewhere else.

What I was saying is that the 'religion' thing was potentially inflammatory, since very few people shrug their shoulders if it's about religion.

[milk]

Calling BLM is "a religion" is inflammatory language, Limbaugh-style.

The word "religion" is carefully chosen for maximum effect, appealing to "our white systems are going to be replaced" anxieties.

It wasn't an accusation of you.

I was assuming you had taken this concept from somewhere else.

What I was saying is that the 'religion' thing was potentially inflammatory, since very few people shrug their shoulders if it's about religion.

yeah but it sounds like what you're saying is that people making this accusation have this hidden or sinister motive? I don't think for one second that McWhorter is attempting to appeal to white fear. I think he believes it's become a faith thing - and so do I. It's very hard to back away from any worldview once you're fully invested. People go all the way in on this stuff and then good luck trying to say, "well, maybe it's not true."