Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)

[Jo498]

The French revolutionary composers were only moderately innovative *musically*.
Unlike the utterly ridiculous pieces the article refers to, the biographical and historical facts are at least superficially correct (although hand-picked, it would be as easy to find Beethoven's music functionally (ab)used by the Nazis or Stalinist as the symbolic value for struggles against totalitarianism mentioned in the article.
Beethoven wasn't a politically revolutionary but his sympathies for enlightened reforms of the then current state (and while I don't know the details it seems that after Emperor Joseph II. was  a bit over-ambitious in the 1780s his successors did turn the clock back on such reforms) is pretty well documented and while as an aging deaf man he was probably too involved with both his music and personal troubles (nephew Karl affair) to be as bothered by Metternich's proto-Stasi as has sometimes been claimed.

[Florestan]

Like most great artists, LvB was a self-centered egomaniac. That was the root of his struggles against authority.

I wouldn't go that far. After all, in his early youth he was quite the socialite and rather eager to ingratiate himself with the aristocracy, including at romantic levels. The onset of deafness ruined all his prospects (which looked promising) and turned him into a disgruntled, embittered and grumpy man. Yet none of the above is any proof that his commitment to personal freedom and social equality for all was insincere.

And I think your claim about most great artists being self-centered egomaniacs is greatly exaggerated. Many, yes, but most?

Claiming that LvB would have voted for Joe Biden (!) is presentism at its worst.

Not only that, but that he would have enthusiastically written cantatas in Biden's honor (!!!).

[ritter]

Not only that, but that he would have enthusiastically written cantatas in Biden's honor (!!!).

Look at the bright side: we've been spared a Cantata on the Election of President Joe, which would probably have been just as awful as the Cantata on the Death of Emperor Joseph II.

[Florestan]

The French revolutionary composers were only moderately innovative *musically*.
Unlike the utterly ridiculous pieces the article refers to, the biographical and historical facts are at least superficially correct (although hand-picked, it would be as easy to find Beethoven's music functionally (ab)used by the Nazis or Stalinist as the symbolic value for struggles against totalitarianism mentioned in the article.
Beethoven wasn't a politically revolutionary but his sympathies for enlightened reforms of the then current state (and while I don't know the details it seems that after Emperor Joseph II. was  a bit over-ambitious in the 1780s his successors did turn the clock back on such reforms) is pretty well documented and while as an aging deaf man he was probably too involved with both his music and personal troubles (nephew Karl affair) to be as bothered by Metternich's proto-Stasi as has sometimes been claimed.

The stupidiy of the Washington Post piece is to assume that a political liberal of the early 19th century --- which Beethoven, by all contemporary accounts, was --- would automatically translate into a progressive of today. This asumption, which is generally incorrect, is all the more wrong in LvB's case who, by all contemporary accounts, was quite conservative about morality, including sexual matters (his aversion for Cosi fan tutte because of its frivolous and libertine subject matter is notorious). Opposing aristocratic power in principle is not the same as voting for Joe Biden.

[Florestan]

Look at the bright side: we've been spared a Cantata on the Election of President Joe, which would probably have been just as awful as the Cantata on the Death of Emperor Joseph II.

Otoh, Rage over a Lost Election would have certainly been as fun.

[Florestan]

it seems that after Emperor Joseph II. was  a bit over-ambitious in the 1780s his successors did turn the clock back on such reforms

Joseph II was just as despotic as his nephew Francis, only he used his despotism to push well-intentioned but ill-conceived reforms which created more problems that they were supposed to solve. His brother and succesor Leopold II, much more cool-headed, moderate and rational than his predecessor, tried hard to redress the situation while preserving the reformist spirit but his untimely death prevented his efforts from being succesful. Leopold's son Francis inherited the Austrian mess and was also challenged first by the French Revolution in its terrorist phase and later by Napoleon's aggressive and warlike foreign policy. Small wonder he retreated to a reactionary policy.

[Scion7]

and yet, the late piano sonatas and string quartets are deaf to such things!    0:)

[Todd]

Claiming that LvB would have voted for Joe Biden (!) is presentism at its worst.

He would have voted for Jo Jorgensen, I know it.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

He would have voted for Jo Jorgensen, I know it.

No way. He was too dependent on Big Gov't (aristocratic and imperial patronage).

With his love of nature, I think he would have gone for the Green Party.

[amw]

Look at the bright side: we've been spared a Cantata on the Election of President Joe, which would probably have been just as awful as the Cantata on the Death of Emperor Joseph II.

Honestly though, just speaking as a composer, if I got asked to write a Cantata for the Re-Election of President Trump or whatever, and I got paid for it in advance, I'd definitely do it. Complete with massed choirs singing hymns of praise to Trump, The Great Liberator, etc. It would likely be great for supporting me financially to work on other projects I'm more interested in (and, if it became politically necessary, the text could be rewritten at the last minute to glorify Biden instead of Trump). Politically speaking of course I consider Trump and Biden capitalist pigs or whatever, but work is work. I tend to think most other artists have similar feelings about any political figures they're commissioned to glorify—especially if they're perpetually short of cash, which Beethoven was at certain times in his life.

For this reason I tend to view most composers' political persuasions to be fairly meaningless: art in itself doesn't have specific semantic content. There's not really any way to tell the difference between a funeral march for Ruth Bader Ginsberg and one for Antonin Scalia just by listening, and political texts can be changed easily—or will have their meaning forgotten over time (does anyone care about the text of Das glorreiche Augenblick these days?)

That said Beethoven undoubtedly did have some political and social views, although these do not fall easily into any of our categories of conservative or liberal, as the social context was different. I do not think it's important to understand these views in order to understand his music. He wasn't a "revolutionary" in the French or American sense but I don't think we'd consider those revolutions to necessarily be "progressive" either, except in a strict Marxist/Hegelian view of progression from feudalism into capitalism.

[Madiel]

Oh look, the notion of who he would have voted for falls at the first hurdle. Beethoven emigrated. He'd be living somewhere else by now.

[Handelian]

Honestly though, just speaking as a composer, if I got asked to write a Cantata for the Re-Election of President Trump or whatever, and I got paid for it in advance, I'd definitely do it. Complete with massed choirs singing hymns of praise to Trump, The Great Liberator, etc. It would likely be great for supporting me financially to work on other projects I'm more interested in (and, if it became politically necessary, the text could be rewritten at the last minute to glorify Biden instead of Trump). Politically speaking of course I consider Trump and Biden capitalist pigs or whatever, but work is work. I tend to think most other artists have similar feelings about any political figures they're commissioned to glorify—especially if they're perpetually short of cash, which Beethoven was at certain times in his life.

For this reason I tend to view most composers' political persuasions to be fairly meaningless: art in itself doesn't have specific semantic content. There's not really any way to tell the difference between a funeral march for Ruth Bader Ginsberg and one for Antonin Scalia just by listening, and political texts can be changed easily—or will have their meaning forgotten over time (does anyone care about the text of Das glorreiche Augenblick these days?)

That said Beethoven undoubtedly did have some political and social views, although these do not fall easily into any of our categories of conservative or liberal, as the social context was different. I do not think it's important to understand these views in order to understand his music. He wasn't a "revolutionary" in the French or American sense but I don't think we'd consider those revolutions to necessarily be "progressive" either, except in a strict Marxist/Hegelian view of progression from feudalism into capitalism.

Beethoven had the good sense to eventually realise that it was the capitalist pigs who actually paid the bills, whatever he thought of them in private! People like Shostakovich and Prokofiev found that working for the Marxist pigs could be rather intimidating

[amw]

The point was that you can't generally tell much about the political views of a composer from the political content of their music (though there are some exceptions), and need to refer to primary sources such as letters, diaries, conversation books etc. For most of history composers have been dependent on some kind of patronage for their career. That's just a reality about how the music industry works, regardless of the economic system or political circumstances.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Different ways to treat (ruin?) Beethoven:


CD from Hell: Beethoven Knob-Fiddling
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/cd-from-hell-beethoven-knob-fiddling/?search=1
(Insider content, alas)

[Maestro267]

I believe today's the big day, correct?

[MusicTurner]

I don't have the energy to go through the thread, and maybe it was already mentioned, but Beethoven's 5th Symphony actually quotes French revolutionary songs, leading to triumph, cf. the musings by Gardiner and others.

[Madiel]

I believe today's the big day, correct?

Depends what time zone you're in and what you are using as a marker. Beethoven considered his birthday to be the 16th. He was baptised on the 17th.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Depends what time zone you're in and what you are using as a marker. Beethoven considered his birthday to be the 16th. He was baptised on the 17th.

Of course, for many years he didn't even know his real birth-year, which caused him some consternation...

[GioCar]

Arguably the best website on Beethoven I've ever seen

https://www.lvbeethoven.it/

in Italian, but with very good translations (bots?) in English, French, German, Castilian. Once you select a language, you have to cancel the site cookings to revert to Italian  .

[calyptorhynchus]

Arguably the best website on Beethoven I've ever seen

https://www.lvbeethoven.it/

in Italian, but with very good translations (bots?) in English, French, German, Castilian. Once you select a language, you have to cancel the site cookings to revert to Italian  .

What dishes do the site cookings provide? I like to eat and browse 😋