Mahler symphonies - help

[Heather Harrison]

It would be hard to compare, since the Abbado/Berlin Philharmonic is the Third, and the Bernstein is the Fourth.  Also, I would like to hear the Bernstein remastered on CD before I pass final judgment because some deficiencies in the sound quality on the old mono LP get in the way.  The Abbado performance of the Third has some issues with sound quality; it seems a bit muddled.  And the performance overall just doesn't "move" me as much as some of the others do.  However, this recording does have its fans - I guess it is just a question of personal taste.  (Note that Abbado has recorded the Third more than once with different orchestras - maybe one of his other performances is better.)

The Abbado performance that I have is this one:



I'll modify my previous post to make it more clear which symphonies I am referring to.

Heather

[Steve]

Which Abbado and Bernstein? You are talking about this one?



versus this one?


(I don't have Bernstein's later DG Mahler 3rd - the only symphony from his later DG remake that I don't have)

There is no comparison. Abbado is much too refined for my taste. The opening horn uniso is way too broad and the whole movement never quite sounds raw enough for me. THe final movement is fabulous though - give credit to those Viennese strings.

Bernstein's SONY Mahler 3rd is a classics in every sense. I would rank it right up there with Chailly as the best I have heard.

I was actually referring to the Abbado with the Berliner Philharmoniker- my apologies for the lack of clarity. I have not liked very much of this series, (2nd, 6th)- but I was told that the 3rd was of a much higher quality than the others. Outside of the Bernstein, I really have no other 'go to' recording of this piece. Have you, by chance, heard this one, PerfectWagnerite?

Heather, the Bernstein that I was speaking of, was his rendition with the NYPO on DG,

.

I am quite fond of this recording, and am simply looking for another high caliber performance. Coming from someone who does not have a proclivity for Abbado in Mahler, I doubt that this Third will be very appealing to me. I often have a very similar complaint of Abbado - especially in the Sixth (my personal favourite Mahler Symphony), that his performance just doesn't feel very inspired. I just don't feel, as you say, "moved" by his recordings.

Have either of you heard Szell in the Third?

Thanks. 

[Heather Harrison]

Heather, the Bernstein that I was speaking of, was his rendition with the NYPO on DG,

No - it is the one on Columbia (now Sony).  I believe it dates from c. 1960.  It has been reissued on CD.



Heather

[Steve]

No, I'm speaking of my Bernstein recording, which is the one released on DG.

[Sergeant Rock]

Have either of you heard Szell in the Third?

Thanks. 

Did he record the Third? Not that I'm aware of. The only Szell Mahler I know is the Fourth, Sixth, Das Lied von der Erde, Das Knaben Wunderhorn and the Adagio and Purgatorio movements of the Tenth. If anyone knows more, please let us know.

Sarge

[PerfectWagnerite]

Did[Szell] he record the Third? Not that I'm aware of. The only Szell Mahler I know is the Fourth, Sixth, Das Lied von der Erde, Das Knaben Wunderhorn and the Adagio and Purgatorio movements of the Tenth. If anyone knows more, please let us know.

Sarge

I didn't think so either...Unless it's a Bruckner Third.

I was actually referring to the Abbado with the Berliner Philharmoniker- my apologies for the lack of clarity. I have not liked very much of this series, (2nd, 6th)- but I was told that the 3rd was of a much higher quality than the others. Outside of the Bernstein, I really have no other 'go to' recording of this piece. Have you, by chance, heard this one, PerfectWagnerite?

Heather, the Bernstein that I was speaking of, was his rendition with the NYPO on DG,

.

I am quite fond of this recording, and am simply looking for another high caliber performance. Coming from someone who does not have a proclivity for Abbado in Mahler, I doubt that this Third will be very appealing to me. I often have a very similar complaint of Abbado - especially in the Sixth (my personal favourite Mahler Symphony), that his performance just doesn't feel very inspired. I just don't feel, as you say, "moved" by his recordings.

Have either of you heard Szell in the Third?

Thanks. 

Just to make it clear (I am sure you know that already) Bernstein did TWO Mahler cycles: a '60s set with the NYPO on SONY/CBS and an '80s set with the Concertgebouw/NYPO/VPO on DG. Both sets are available as well as individual discs from either set. Unfortunately the LATER DG 3rd you that you own I have not heard. But by all accounts that is a fabulous recording (as well as his earlier SONY account).

If you want another Mahler 3rd, consider youself lucky because by and large almost everything out there is very good. Some of my favorites are Gielen(Hanssler), Bertini(EMI), and of course Chailly(Decca)-probably my favorite. If you want an American orchestra for a leaner string sound and brighter brass sound as well as extra oomph in the percussion you can try Salonen (SONY).

Two that others love but I am not high on are Horenstein and Boulez. I don't like Boulez in Mahler in general. Clearly he does not like this music but feels obliged to conduct it because in order to be a big conductor you MUST conduct Mahler and Bruckner nowadays...

Abbado's Mahler is a mixed bag. This one is top-tier material:



with an extremely classical yet dreamy 7th.

This one, however, is a loser:

with a bad recording sound to go with some uncharacteriscally bad playing from the BPO.

[jwinter]

Did he record the Third? Not that I'm aware of. The only Szell Mahler I know is the Fourth, Sixth, Das Lied von der Erde, Das Knaben Wunderhorn and the Adagio and Purgatorio movements of the Tenth. If anyone knows more, please let us know.

Sarge

FWIW, I have a live recording of Szell in the 9th.  The sound quality is not wonderful, but feel free to drop me a PM if interested. 

[Drasko]

Clearly he [Boulez]does not like this music but feels obliged to conduct it because in order to be a big conductor you MUST conduct Mahler and Bruckner nowadays...

Bull...

[BorisG]

I didn't think so either...Unless it's a Bruckner Third.

Just to make it clear (I am sure you know that already) Bernstein did TWO Mahler cycles: a '60s set with the NYPO on SONY/CBS and an '80s set with the Concertgebouw/NYPO/VPO on DG. Both sets are available as well as individual discs from either set. Unfortunately the LATER DG 3rd you that you own I have not heard. But by all accounts that is a fabulous recording (as well as his earlier SONY account).

If you want another Mahler 3rd, consider youself lucky because by and large almost everything out there is very good. Some of my favorites are Gielen(Hanssler), Bertini(EMI), and of course Chailly(Decca)-probably my favorite. If you want an American orchestra for a leaner string sound and brighter brass sound as well as extra oomph in the percussion you can try Salonen (SONY).

Two that others love but I am not high on are Horenstein and Boulez. I don't like Boulez in Mahler in general. Clearly he does not like this music but feels obliged to conduct it because in order to be a big conductor you MUST conduct Mahler and Bruckner nowadays...

Abbado's Mahler is a mixed bag. This one is top-tier material:



with an extremely classical yet dreamy 7th.

This one, however, is a loser:

with a bad recording sound to go with some uncharacteriscally bad playing from the BPO.

Except it is not the BPO in either.

[Steve]

Did he record the Third? Not that I'm aware of. The only Szell Mahler I know is the Fourth, Sixth, Das Lied von der Erde, Das Knaben Wunderhorn and the Adagio and Purgatorio movements of the Tenth. If anyone knows more, please let us know.


Sarge

I've been trying to hunt down the Szell recordings, and I wasn't sure whether or not he had done the Third. From the responses offered on this page, I should easily be able to find another Third to compliment my Bernstein.

Sarge, have you heard Chailly?

[Sergeant Rock]

I've been trying to hunt down the Szell recordings, and I wasn't sure whether or not he had done the Third. From the responses offered on this page, I should easily be able to find another Third to compliment my Bernstein.
Sarge, have you heard Chailly?

Unfortunately, Szell, like most of the conductors of his generation, left us only a few examples of his Mahler.

Yes, I own Chailly's Third and I agree with the positive comments here. It's a great version. I heard Chailly conduct this live, too, with the same soloist, Petra Lang. You won't be disappointed.

Sarge

[Bunny]

I've been trying to hunt down the Szell recordings, and I wasn't sure whether or not he had done the Third. From the responses offered on this page, I should easily be able to find another Third to compliment my Bernstein.

Sarge, have you heard Chailly?

Szell didn't record the Mahler 3rd, and if I am remembering correctly, was not fully comfortable with Mahler's music.  He recorded the 4th, the  6th, the adagio from the 10th and Das Knaben Wunderhorn with the London SO. 

The Chailly Mahler 3rd is probably one of the best on disc, but there are others also that are noteworthy. Tony Dugan has a survey at MusicWeb that details some of the more interesting recordings. 

[Steve]

Szell didn't record the Mahler 3rd, and if I am remembering correctly, was not fully comfortable with Mahler's music.  He recorded the 4th, the  6th, the adagio from the 10th and Das Knaben Wunderhorn with the London SO. 

The Chailly Mahler 3rd is probably one of the best on disc, but there are others also that are noteworthy. Tony Dugan has a survey at MusicWeb that details some of the more interesting recordings. 

See, I liked Szell in the Sixth. My favourite there is probably either the Bernstein or Boulez, but Szell's rendition wasn't bad.

I'm glad to see the support for Chailly's 3rd, I really need a new recording of this one, as the only two I have are the
Elihau and the Bernstein.

[MishaK]

Elihau

You mean Eliahu Inbal?

[Steve]

You mean Eliahu Inbal?

I did, indeed. 

[Sergeant Rock]

See, I liked Szell in the Sixth.

Like most conductors then, and few conductors today, he only recorded what he loved. Mahler was problematic for most conductors of his generation. Even Bruno Walter, supposedly a Mahler disciple, was selective. Szell's Mahler 6 and his Mahler 4 are GREAT performances (I'm sure he believed in those symphonies). He also wanted to record Das Lied von der Erde with Jon Vickers and Janet Baker. A ridiculous union rule concerning rehearsals prevented that from happening...a significant loss in my opinion. (A live recording from Severance Hall with Richard Lewis and Baker was issued once in a large, and expensive, box set, available directly from the Cleveland Orchestra but hasn't been generally available.)
Your instincts were correct about the Sixth, Steve, and I'm very glad you like it.

Sarge

[MishaK]

Like most conductors then, and few conductors today, he only recorded what he loved. Mahler was problematic for most conductors of his generation. Even Bruno Walter, supposedly a Mahler disciple, was selective.

Query though whether they were selective about performing or selective about recording certain works?

[Sergeant Rock]

Query though whether they were selective about performing or selective about recording certain works?

Good question. Szell certainly conducted more works than he recorded. But compared to the rate of recordings in the CD era, things moved at a slower pace in his day. He also had to compete with Bernstein in New York and Ormandy in Philadelphia for recording projects. Columbia didn't want a lot of duplication. He probably wanted to record far more than he did.

Pertaining specifically to Mahler: Szell didn't perform the symphonies that often in Cleveland. I'm only aware of 4, 6 and Das Lied although Jwinter has a CD of the 9th that claims to be Szell/Cleveland. Walter is known to have disliked Mahler 6 and refused to conduct it. That we have no Walter recordings of 3 and 7 (is there an Eighth?) probably tells us something too. How often, if ever, did he conduct those symphonies?

Sarge

[knight66]

Also in Szell's time, no conductor would have taken their first attempt at a work into the recording studios, unless perhaps a world premier work. In general they marinaded themselves for years in pieces then gave us the fruits of that experience. Gardiner is one who basically is happy to record his first attempts, Verdi Requiem, Berlioz Faust...there are others who behave in the same way.

Mike

[Bunny]

You mean Eliahu Inbal?

Certainly not Eliahu HaNabi.