Brexit

[Que]

Wow!    How could the UK join the internal market?

PD

By signing up to the European Free Trade Association and the Agreement on the European Economic Area, like Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein. Or negotiate with the EU a separate but similar treaty to the latter.

But the UK doesn't want to become a "vassal state"... 

Which leads on back to full membership... Brexit logic is full of vicious circles! 

[71 dB]

Perhaps PD meant how the brits are mentally ready to join rather than how it would happen in practise?

12 years of Tory rule in post-factual World has turned the mental clocks 100 years backwards to the times when the brits "ruled half the World." The UK seems to be a nation in decline economically, politically and democratically which is sad not only for themselves, but also for the whole Europe. If anything good comes out of Brexit, it is forcing the brits to open their eyes and see what is happening in their country possibly starting a change to stop the decline and allowing the improvement of things.

[Que]

Perhaps PD meant how the brits are mentally ready to join rather than how it would happen in practise?

Not any time soon.... After all, it it very painfull to admit a wrong decision and even considering the possibility is unsettling and confusing. And this was a decision that was - through political manipulation - closely tied to the UK's self image as a nation.

Cognitive Bias & The Sunk Cost Fallacy

[Iota]

Not any time soon.... After all, it it very painfull to admit a wrong decision and even considering the possibility is unsettling and confusing. And this was a decision that was - through political manipulation - closely tied to the UK's self image as a nation.

Cognitive Bias & The Sunk Cost Fallacy

That's probably true. But I also think most people who voted Leave voted so for ideological reasons, not economic ones, wanting to take back control etc, etc, and tbh I think for now many of those people feel they've broadly achieved that aim, and are prepared to take the economic hit that goes with it. Brexit was never about logic, it was about a 'feeling', and people still appear quite happy about it.

Time may shift these things around of course, but it doesn't feel imminent. The Opposition party (Labour) already rather useless, is rendered completely toothless on the issue. A while ago I posted some rather stark figures here on how post-Brexit UK is lagging significantly behind much of the rest of the world on exports. And you would normally expect the Opposition to pounce on such figures and berate the Government mercilessly on their performance, but not a whisper. The reason being that Labour lost many of their supposedly safe Red Wall seats (constituencies where Brexit voter percentages are high) to the Tories in the last election and desperately need to get them back to have any chance of regaining power. Thus we have paralysis ...

Lovely being back where we belong again. 

[Madiel]

The problem with wanting to "take back control" is misidentifying the reasons you don't feel like you have control in the first place.

But politicians and others play on these feelings over and over.

[Iota]

The problem with wanting to "take back control" is misidentifying the reasons you don't feel like you have control in the first place.

But politicians and others play on these feelings over and over.

Whether Leave voters misidentified their reasons for wanting to do so I cannot say, but even if they did, rational argument to the contrary would have had little effect I think. In the setting of what's perceived as a fractured, alienated society, I think many people had a hankering to return to an amorphous vision of Britain as it was in the 50s or 60s say (with all the mod cons of course), before multiculturalism, political correctness, the EU, etc. And there has indeed been a relentless anti-EU campaign by right-wing media barons and certain political factions for years, feeding such feelings of disenchantment, particularly with regard to the EU, and there's no doubt it found fertile territory. And when Brexit came along, it was a perfect opportunity for all those feelings of frustration to find expression, and one that was eagerly taken. 

And as I said, so far, those people seem to broadly feel that Shangri-la has been sufficiently achieved to make it feel it worthwhile, however illusory that feeling might be. There has been no shock impact, discomforts yes, but they can be written off as part and parcel of life's standard imperfections (for now anyway, and future problems will no doubt be blamed by media barons and chums on a vindictive EU etc). The important itch that wanted scratching was the 'feeling' of shaking off of the EU controlling our destiny, and that itch appears to have been ticked.

[Madiel]

Whether Leave voters misidentified their reasons for wanting to do so I cannot say

Well I'm not quite saying that. I'm saying people misidentify the actual reasons they aren't in control.

The reason they want to do something is obvious - because they believe it will make a difference. The problem is, people are usually wrong about that. They pick a lever to press that isn't actually connected to anything.  It's the equivalent of deciding that my car will go faster if I clean the side windows.

[Iota]

Well I'm not quite saying that. I'm saying people misidentify the actual reasons they aren't in control.

The reason they want to do something is obvious - because they believe it will make a difference. The problem is, people are usually wrong about that. They pick a lever to press that isn't actually connected to anything.  It's the equivalent of deciding that my car will go faster if I clean the side windows.

I agree that's often true. Though even if they are wrong about it in the case of Brexit, it doesn't change the above, they still seem to 'feel' that things are better now, that the EU weight has been lifted from the country's shoulders, and that's what they wanted. Explaining where they're going wrong, won't make a whole lot of difference, and didn't before, it was tried endlessly. 'You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic' etc.

[Irons]

Brexit obviously receded a bit as a subject, & I haven't followed it much lately, but nonetheless this caught one's interest a bit:

"One part of a queue out the U.K. last Friday. I'm not exaggerating - operation brock wasn't long enough for the sheer amount of trucks waiting to queue.
I counted 24 miles - and that didn't include the road into Dover docks."

https://twitter.com/vanmaneuro/status/1511830832876560388
https://twitter.com/vanmaneuro/status/1511831526043959302

It seems like something has to be fixed ...

Nothing to do with the B word. P&O Ferries took the despicable decision without warning to sack their total seafaring workforce of 800. Then to hire cheaper untrained labour they already had lined up. This has resulted in a stand-off between P&O and the government. As far as I'm aware P&O ferries are yet to restart operations. 

[MusicTurner]

'Nothing to do with ...' is probably going a little far, since discussions seem to meander around the degree of 1) the sackings, and 2) the introduction of new computer systems for Post-Brexit custom services, are influencing the queues; some reports say that drivers have to spend 15 minutes for their computerized 'clearance'.  Apparently the situation with the system's start problems is expected to improve.

[Irons]

I do not disagree, not saying for a moment that all sweetness and light but the P&O debacle was a very special circumstance and should not be used in the Brexit debate.

My Brexit rant is the price of the national dish, the humble fish and chips. Predicted that soon a meal that will rival steak in cost. An island surrounded by sea and the beastly (joke) French fishermen sent on their way prices were supposed to tumble not head in the opposite direction. The "cod wars" suddenly went very quiet. I guess as with everything else we marched up the hill and then marched down again!

[steve ridgway]

It's more the greasy palm oil left coating the inside of our mouths that puts us off fish and chips nowadays.

[Que]

Brexit import checks delayed for fourth time

Comment of Rees-Mogg with the Orwellian title of "Minister for Brexit Opportunities and Government Efficiency":
Mr Rees-Mogg said it would have been "an act of self-harm" if the government had decided to go ahead with the import controls.

So, you want the sovereignty to set your own rules but it would be "an act of self harm" to enforce them?
The irony is, he is actually  right... But then again, Brexit as such was "an act of self harm".

Are we ready yet, to wake up from the post imperial dreams of self delusion? 

[Que]

UK ports consider legal action after Rees-Mogg delays Brexit controls

Companies fear millions wasted on hurriedly built infrastructure as minister delays import checks for fourth time


"Millions wasted", that sounds like an accurate description.

[71 dB]

UK ports consider legal action after Rees-Mogg delays Brexit controls

Companies fear millions wasted on hurriedly built infrastructure as minister delays import checks for fourth time

"Millions wasted", that sounds like an accurate description.

Money always goes somewhere, even wasted money. In the case of the UK, wasted money flows to the pockets of rich and well-connected people. I am sure if we investicated the firm(s) who bild the ports infrastructure for import checks, we'd find out the owners of those film(s) have close ties to members of the current goverment. Why do I say this? Because having followed the UK politics for a while a pattern has emerged: This kind of corruption is how the UK operates these days as a nation. It might be the root cause for all this insanity... 

[Irons]

Brexit import checks delayed for fourth time

Comment of Rees-Mogg with the Orwellian title of "Minister for Brexit Opportunities and Government Efficiency":
Mr Rees-Mogg said it would have been "an act of self-harm" if the government had decided to go ahead with the import controls.

So, you want the sovereignty to set your own rules but it would be "an act of self harm" to enforce them?
The irony is, he is actually  right... But then again, Brexit as such was "an act of self harm".

Are we ready yet, to wake up from the post imperial dreams of self delusion? 

[Madiel]

Money always goes somewhere, even wasted money. In the case of the UK, wasted money flows to the pockets of rich and well-connected people. I am sure if we investicated the firm(s) who bild the ports infrastructure for import checks, we'd find out the owners of those film(s) have close ties to members of the current goverment. Why do I say this? Because having followed the UK politics for a while a pattern has emerged: This kind of corruption is how the UK operates these days as a nation. It might be the root cause for all this insanity... 

Eh? Have you actually read any of the links? The ports have spent a lot of their own money. And if the import checks aren't introduced they can't recoup it.

The principle was explained in the TV show Yes Minister decades ago: why introduce a conspiracy theory when incompetence provides a perfectly serviceable explanation?

[Florestan]

why introduce a conspiracy theory when incompetence provides a perfectly serviceable explanation?

A most wise principle, valid for quite a lot of things and countries. 

[71 dB]

Eh? Have you actually read any of the links? The ports have spent a lot of their own money. And if the import checks aren't introduced they can't recoup it.

The principle was explained in the TV show Yes Minister decades ago: why introduce a conspiracy theory when incompetence provides a perfectly serviceable explanation?

The problems of the ports are very clear. I do understand it, off course. What I am talking about is the money those ports spent went somewhere. Firms building the port infrastructure got their business and money (what they wouldn't have got without Brexit, because there wouldn't be a "need" for the infrastructure). If the ports can demand money back from the government for the mess, it is tax payer money. So, in a way this is a way to transfer tax payer money to port infrastructure companies "laundered" through the ports...

Political incompetence is often the imcompetence of serving the nation and its people, but it is not incompetence in enriching yourself and your close circles of power and wealth.

[Madiel]

The problems of the ports are very clear. I do understand it, off course. What I am talking about is the money those ports spent went somewhere. Firms building the port infrastructure got their business and money (what they wouldn't have got without Brexit, because there wouldn't be a "need" for the infrastructure). If the ports can demand money back from the government for the mess, it is tax payer money. So, in a way this is a way to transfer tax payer money to port infrastructure companies "laundered" through the ports...

Political incompetence is often the imcompetence of serving the nation and its people, but it is not incompetence in enriching yourself and your close circles of power and wealth.

That's a mighty BIG if in the middle of your reasoning.

I mean, next you're going to start arguing it's a secret plan to enrich the legal profession when all the cases go to court.

And that's the problem. You look at a situation and assume it must be planned. For some reason people like believing in elaborate plans. Possibly it's because our best dramatic fiction involves elaborate cunning plans that are gradually revealed to us, as puzzles to be solved. I'm currently watching a pretty entertaining Danish series called "Bedrag" (Deception, though sadly in English they've actually called it Follow the Money), where in both the seasons I've watched the chief villain of the piece has constructed a devilishly elaborate plan to enrich himself that others haven't been able to spot until it's too late for them.

But anyone who works in government, at least, will tell you that real life is exactly the opposite. People don't plan ENOUGH. I'm a highly analytical person and a huge part of my job is pointing out to people the things they haven't thought through enough, the consequences they haven't spotted, the risks they haven't addressed.

We live in an actual world where many people aren't capable of working out that the next traffic light is likely to change before they get there. You're the kind of person who looks at the particular risk that has actually happened, and wrongly reason that this must be the outcome that someone planned. No, it's just one of the several or many possibilities that someone didn't guard against sufficiently to prevent.