Schoenberg's Sheen

[Lisztianwagner]

I listened to Schoenberg's Wind Quintet some weeks ago for the first time, (since I haven't got a recording of that work), and I absolutely fell in love with it, it's a magnificent composition in 12-tone technique, very thrilling, expressive and beautifully mesmerizing, of an almost overwhelming inventiveness; all the sections, both in the expositions and in the developments and the recapitulations, are brilliantly transposed, combined and juxtaposed, to create an impressive, elaborated contrapuntal weaving, maybe not very simple to follow in its rather mazy textures, but clear, precise and solid as the themes stand out accurately and lead the melodic lines like an Ariadne's thread. I love the contrasts in the movements, sometimes with tense, deep atmospheres, sometimes sharp and restless, as well as the great exploration of the timbres and dynamics given by the combination of the woodwinds, whose expressive possibilities are used in a captivating orchestration.
I also listened to Greissle's flute/piano arrangement, which is marvelous too; maybe it's not equal to the original composition, but the fine use of the piano with its colorful, varied timbral lines wonderfully replaces the woodwinds (clarinet, bassoon, horn and oboe), without loosing the beauty of the work.

[Karl Henning]

I listened to Schoenberg's Wind Quintet some weeks ago for the first time, (since I haven't got a recording of that work), and I absolutely fell in love with it, it's a magnificent composition in 12-tone technique, very thrilling, expressive and beautifully mesmerizing, of an almost overwhelming inventiveness; all the sections, both in the expositions and in the developments and the recapitulations, are brilliantly transposed, combined and juxtaposed, to create an impressive, elaborated contrapuntal weaving, maybe not very simple to follow in its rather mazy textures, but clear and solid enough as the themes stand out accurately. I love the contrasts in the movements, sometimes with tense, deep atmospheres, sometimes sharp and restless, as well as the great exploration of the timbres and dynamics given by the combination of the woodwinds, whose expressive possibilities are used in a captivating orchestration.
I also listened to Greissle's flute/piano arrangement, which is marvelous too; maybe it's not equal to the original composition, but the fine use of the piano with its colorful, varied timbral lines wonderfully replaces the woodwinds (clarinet, bassoon, horn and oboe), without loosing the beauty of the work.

Well said, Ilaria. Dynamite piece!

[Karl Henning]

Oh no! Danish is one of the most difficult languages to repeat!

I gave it up on Dulingo almost immediately after getting my feet wet, so to speak....

[Jo498]

Oh no! Danish is one of the most difficult languages to repeat!  So you are native German, can I say this is close to how an English speaker would pronounce "berg"?  Sorry for being so dumb.

You probably misunderstood. In the video the moderator pronounces "berg" quite anglicized. It *should* have a sound more like "bare-k"; final consonants are almost always hardened in German but my point is the vowel, that is much brighter than the umlaut, they should sound "very" different from each other here whereas many anglophes pronounce them almost the same: "Schönbörg", he was not Danish but Austrian .
Or maybe like the vowel when a Scot says "take".
English tend to pronounce German names with -berg and -burg (like Brandenburg) the same way but in the former the vowel is like described above, in the latter like in "lure" or "tour", would usually correspond to "oo" in English.

[Lisztianwagner]

Well said, Ilaria. Dynamite piece!

Dynamite, to say the least! Absolutely!

[MusicTurner]

There is no close equivalent in English to the oe/ö umlaut. There are very similar sounds in Scandinavian languages where it is sometimes (Danish) represented by "crossed o", e.g. Malmö, Göteborg.
French "eu" as in  "Mon Dieu", "bleu" or "Monteux" is also close.
(...)

Yes, we Danes write those Swedish town names as 'Malmø' and 'Gøteborg'.

Likewise, we write and pronounce Copenhagen (of which there are many international variations, including the German 'Kopenhagen', the Italian 'Copenaghen', Hungarian 'Koppenhaga', and the Czech 'Kodan') as 'København'.

None of the foreign ones, except the Scandinavians, keep a pronounciation that is close to our local one.

[relm1]

You probably misunderstood. In the video the moderator pronounces "berg" quite anglicized. It *should* have a sound more like "bare-k"; final consonants are almost always hardened in German but my point is the vowel, that is much brighter than the umlaut, they should sound "very" different from each other here whereas many anglophes pronounce them almost the same: "Schönbörg", he was not Danish but Austrian .
Or maybe like the vowel when a Scot says "take".
English tend to pronounce German names with -berg and -burg (like Brandenburg) the same way but in the former the vowel is like described above, in the latter like in "lure" or "tour", would usually correspond to "oo" in English.

Thanks for explaining further.  In the video, the moderator is also clearly pronouncing an "er" in the first half of the name so something that sounds like "Schurn-berg" but if I'm following, it should have been "Schoon-berg".

[relm1]

I listened to Schoenberg's Wind Quintet some weeks ago for the first time, (since I haven't got a recording of that work), and I absolutely fell in love with it, it's a magnificent composition in 12-tone technique, very thrilling, expressive and beautifully mesmerizing, of an almost overwhelming inventiveness; all the sections, both in the expositions and in the developments and the recapitulations, are brilliantly transposed, combined and juxtaposed, to create an impressive, elaborated contrapuntal weaving, maybe not very simple to follow in its rather mazy textures, but clear, precise and solid as the themes stand out accurately and lead the melodic lines like an Ariadne's thread. I love the contrasts in the movements, sometimes with tense, deep atmospheres, sometimes sharp and restless, as well as the great exploration of the timbres and dynamics given by the combination of the woodwinds, whose expressive possibilities are used in a captivating orchestration.
I also listened to Greissle's flute/piano arrangement, which is marvelous too; maybe it's not equal to the original composition, but the fine use of the piano with its colorful, varied timbral lines wonderfully replaces the woodwinds (clarinet, bassoon, horn and oboe), without loosing the beauty of the work.

Sounds great, will add to my listening list!

[Jo498]

Thanks for explaining further.  In the video, the moderator is also clearly pronouncing an "er" in the first half of the name so something that sounds like "Schurn-berg" but if I'm following, it should have been "Schoon-berg".

No, "Schurn" is close enough to "Schön" (it should be a bit different, more "closed"), but his "berg" has the *same* vowel, not the brighter one, I tried to describe.
The "oo" was referring to the sound "burg" in Brandenburg should have, that is again different from "berg". ö is between "o" and "e", therefore also written "oe" if the dotted umlaut is not available.

[Mirror Image]

This still cracks me up:

https://www.youtube.com/v/LACCAF04wSs

[Lisztianwagner]

Sounds great, will add to my listening list!

It certainly is, I hope you'll enjoy it!
About the pronounce of "Schönberg", Jo (who's German), of course, is right, ö has a sound between "o" and "e", as for example in "Goethe"; for berg, "ber" is similar to the english pronounce of "bare", but with more open "e", while the final "g" is harder and sounds like "k".

[bhodges]

For fans of Moses und Aron (or those who are curious), this version from the 2009 Ruhrtriennale, directed by Willy Decker, is fascinating. I have only seen the Met Opera staging by the late Graham Vick (d. 2021), which debuted in 1999 and returned in 2003. The score is so powerful; I wish more American companies would consider producing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0HPN8830Ls&t=67s

--Bruce

[Karl Henning]

For fans of Moses und Aron (or those who are curious), this version from the 2009 Ruhrtriennale, directed by Willy Decker, is fascinating. I have only seen the Met Opera staging by the late Graham Vick (d. 2021), which debuted in 1999 and returned in 2003. The score is so powerful; I wish more American companies would consider producing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0HPN8830Ls&t=67s

--Bruce

The justly disgraced Levine led a concert performance here in Symphony Hall back when. The soloists, orchestra and Tanglewood Festival Chorus did a fabulous job.

[TheGSMoeller]

For fans of Moses und Aron (or those who are curious), this version from the 2009 Ruhrtriennale, directed by Willy Decker, is fascinating. I have only seen the Met Opera staging by the late Graham Vick (d. 2021), which debuted in 1999 and returned in 2003. The score is so powerful; I wish more American companies would consider producing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0HPN8830Ls&t=67s

--Bruce

Very cool, Bruce. I watched that performance a few years back, I loved the staging, very unique. That reminds me I purchased the below Blu-ray last year and still have yet to see it, I think I now know what I'll be watching tonight.

[TheGSMoeller]

The justly disgraced Levine led a concert performance here in Symphony Hall back when. The soloists, orchestra and Tanglewood Festival Chorus did a fabulous job.

Nice, Karl! I would love to see this work either way, at an opera house or at a concert performance. It's on my bucket list of operas to see live but I'm never close to any performances! I have managed to see Wozzeck twice, which I cherish those memories.

[Mirror Image]

I have managed to see Wozzeck twice, which I cherish those memories.

Oh wow...now that would be something. Wozzeck is one of my favorite operas. I can't say the same for Moses und Aron. I love Schoenberg, but find this opera difficult to appreciate.

[Karl Henning]

Nice, Karl! I would love to see this work either way, at an opera house or at a concert performance. It's on my bucket list of operas to see live but I'm never close to any performances! I have managed to see Wozzeck twice, which I cherish those memories.

Excellent, Greg!

[Cato]

No, "Schurn" is close enough to "Schön" (it should be a bit different, more "closed"), but his "berg" has the *same* vowel, not the brighter one, I tried to describe.
The "oo" was referring to the sound "burg" in Brandenburg should have, that is again different from "berg". ö is between "o" and "e", therefore also written "oe" if the dotted umlaut is not available.

Radio announcers for classical music here in the U.S. "invariably" (i.e. on those very few occasions when they play something by him!) say "Schurnburg."

Very cool, Bruce. I watched that performance a few years back, I loved the staging, very unique. That reminds me I purchased the below Blu-ray last year and still have yet to see it, I think I now know what I'll be watching tonight.

Excellent, Greg!

Yes, most excellent!  Let us know what you think!

[bhodges]

The justly disgraced Levine led a concert performance here in Symphony Hall back when. The soloists, orchestra and Tanglewood Festival Chorus did a fabulous job.

I think I recall your raving about that when it happened. It really is a shame about Levine, with his advocacy for the composer. (I wouldn't be surprised if the Met never does that opera again.)

And given the orchestral role, it would have been fun to hear that with the ensemble onstage, rather than in the pit.

Very cool, Bruce. I watched that performance a few years back, I loved the staging, very unique. That reminds me I purchased the below Blu-ray last year and still have yet to see it, I think I now know what I'll be watching tonight.

Yes, would be most interested to hear comments!

--Bruce

[Lisztianwagner]

I've listened to Moses und Aron recently (along with Die Jakobsleiter), it's not my very favourite Schönberg's composition, though I've found it a thrilling, meditative work, of great musical incisiveness, tension and variety; a very good example of the prodigious richness of the schönbergian languages. Very interesting for the complementary polarities both in the music and in the text too.

Oh wow...now that would be something. Wozzeck is one of my favorite operas. I can't say the same for Moses und Aron. I love Schoenberg, but find this opera difficult to appreciate.

Really? Out of curiosity, why is it so hard to appreciate?