Schoenberg's Sheen

[Lisztianwagner]

And this is what I particularly loved about Schoenberg. He never repeated himself or simply rested on his laurels. He continued to push himself into new creative directions. Where the results always successful? Not for me, but I tip my hat to his ability to change and find new avenues of expression. The period of his music I return to the most is his middle period: the 'Free Atonal' works. For me, this is Schoenberg at his Expressionistic best.

Well said, I concur!

[Mirror Image]

Well said, I concur!

I had a feeling you might agree, Ilaria.

[Lisztianwagner]

Some thoughts about Schönberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra: it is an astounding work, very evocative, thrilling and hauntingly beautiful, of an overwhelming expressiveness, so tense and dramatic, that it sounds as it can truly bring out all the powerful feelings hidden in the inner being; but also, despite the shortness of the movements, it has a great ability to concentrate the poetical depth and the necessity of the inspiration into a brief, but meaningful shape, resulting really suggestive anyway. As in many Schönberg's pieces, the composition has a logically stringent and rigorous structure, which is not always simple to orient in with so changing melodic lines, so colourful orchestral tones, but at the same time such density of sound emotion, nonetheless the textures are developed with great flexibility and unpredictability, full of tensions, wide choices of dynamics and an extreme chromaticism, to create an atmosphere that completely mesmerizes and captures; moreover, what is particularly impressive is the deep search and exploration of the possibilities of the timbres, so varied in the instrumental colours, and continuously transformed and elaborated even when the harmonies fade in an incredibly delicate and soft way.
The first part is fiery and aggressive, characterized by a segmented pace, with irregular rhythms and contrasts of chords; it begins with a fragmented, restless atmosphere, similarly proposed again in the ending, while in the middle section, it quickly grows to burst out into a frightening climax, followed by a fortissimo of extraordinary intensity before suddenly diminishing; the second part is lyrical and meditative, not as dissonant and strident as the previous movement, though more colorful in the orchestration and focused on the trimbric effect, which in the somber, thoughtful proceeding comes out in the strings, woods and the strong presence of the celesta, often in ostinato. The third part is mysterious and introspective, and it goes on quiet and heavy like a solemn procession, with almost imperceptible harmonic nuances, but with subtle, continuous changes of the orchestral colour, reaching an amazing expressive power; a very good contrast with the fast and energetic fourth part, which alternates violent, striking passages to others slow and gloomy. The final fifth part moves through a rich, thick melodic weaving, with a metamorphic phrasing of the instruments, mostly calm, yet not peaceful, on the contrary very anxious, evoking spectral atmospheres.

[relm1]

Some thoughts about Schönberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra: it is an astounding work, very evocative, thrilling and hauntingly beautiful, of an overwhelming expressiveness, so tense and dramatic, that it sounds as it can truly bring out all the powerful feelings hidden in the inner being; but also, despite the shortness of the movements, it has a great ability to concentrate the poetical depth and the necessity of the inspiration into a brief, but meaningful shape, resulting really suggestive anyway. As in many Schönberg's pieces, the composition has a logically stringent and rigorous structure, which is not always simple to orient in with so changing melodic lines, so colourful orchestral tones, but at the same time such density of sound emotion, nonetheless the textures are developed with great flexibility and unpredictability, full of tensions, wide choices of dynamics and an extreme chromaticism, to create an atmosphere that completely mesmerizes and captures; moreover, what is particularly impressive is the deep search and exploration of the possibilities of the timbres, so varied in the instrumental colours, and continuously transformed and elaborated even when the harmonies fade in an incredibly delicate and soft way.
The first part is fiery and aggressive, characterized by a segmented pace, with irregular rhythms and contrasts of chords; it begins with a fragmented, restless atmosphere, similarly proposed again in the ending, while in the middle section, it quickly grows to burst out into a frightening climax, followed by a fortissimo of extraordinary intensity before suddenly diminishing; the second part is lyrical and meditative, not as dissonant and strident as the previous movement, though more colorful in the orchestration and focused on the trimbric effect, which in the somber, thoughtful proceeding comes out in the strings, woods and the strong presence of the celesta, often in ostinato. The third part is mysterious and introspective, and it goes on quiet and heavy like a solemn procession, with almost imperceptible harmonic nuances, but with subtle, continuous changes of the orchestral colour, reaching an amazing expressive power; a very good contrast with the fast and energetic fourth part, which alternates violent, striking passages to others slow and gloomy. The final fifth part moves through a rich, thick melodic weaving, with a metamorphic phrasing of the instruments, mostly calm, yet not peaceful, on the contrary very anxious, evoking spectral atmospheres.

I absolutely love your description of this work.  It whets my appetite to explore it further since your description is so descriptive. 

[Lisztianwagner]

I absolutely love your description of this work.  It whets my appetite to explore it further since your description is so descriptive.

Thank you, that's very kind of you. I hope you'll enjoy it, that Schönberg work is a masterpieces and absolutely worth exploring.

[Leo K.]

Some thoughts about Schönberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra: it is an astounding work, very evocative, thrilling and hauntingly beautiful, of an overwhelming expressiveness, so tense and dramatic, that it sounds as it can truly bring out all the powerful feelings hidden in the inner being; but also, despite the shortness of the movements, it has a great ability to concentrate the poetical depth and the necessity of the inspiration into a brief, but meaningful shape, resulting really suggestive anyway. As in many Schönberg's pieces, the composition has a logically stringent and rigorous structure, which is not always simple to orient in with so changing melodic lines, so colourful orchestral tones, but at the same time such density of sound emotion, nonetheless the textures are developed with great flexibility and unpredictability, full of tensions, wide choices of dynamics and an extreme chromaticism, to create an atmosphere that completely mesmerizes and captures; moreover, what is particularly impressive is the deep search and exploration of the possibilities of the timbres, so varied in the instrumental colours, and continuously transformed and elaborated even when the harmonies fade in an incredibly delicate and soft way.
The first part is fiery and aggressive, characterized by a segmented pace, with irregular rhythms and contrasts of chords; it begins with a fragmented, restless atmosphere, similarly proposed again in the ending, while in the middle section, it quickly grows to burst out into a frightening climax, followed by a fortissimo of extraordinary intensity before suddenly diminishing; the second part is lyrical and meditative, not as dissonant and strident as the previous movement, though more colorful in the orchestration and focused on the trimbric effect, which in the somber, thoughtful proceeding comes out in the strings, woods and the strong presence of the celesta, often in ostinato. The third part is mysterious and introspective, and it goes on quiet and heavy like a solemn procession, with almost imperceptible harmonic nuances, but with subtle, continuous changes of the orchestral colour, reaching an amazing expressive power; a very good contrast with the fast and energetic fourth part, which alternates violent, striking passages to others slow and gloomy. The final fifth part moves through a rich, thick melodic weaving, with a metamorphic phrasing of the instruments, mostly calm, yet not peaceful, on the contrary very anxious, evoking spectral atmospheres.

Thank you for this great summary, I am going to listen to this work today. Well done!

[Karl Henning]

+ 1

[Cato]

Some thoughts about Schönberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra: it is an astounding work, very evocative, thrilling and hauntingly beautiful, of an overwhelming expressiveness, so tense and dramatic, that it sounds as it can truly bring out all the powerful feelings hidden in the inner being; but also, despite the shortness of the movements, it has a great ability to concentrate the poetical depth and the necessity of the inspiration into a brief, but meaningful shape, resulting really suggestive anyway. ...


The first part is fiery and aggressive, characterized by a segmented pace, with irregular rhythms and contrasts of chords; it begins with a fragmented, restless atmosphere, similarly proposed again in the ending, while in the middle section, it quickly grows to burst out into a frightening climax, followed by a fortissimo of extraordinary intensity before suddenly diminishing;
with a metamorphic phrasing of the instruments, mostly calm, yet not peaceful, on the contrary very anxious, evoking spectral atmospheres.

When I was teaching Advanced Placement European History, I played this first movement and told the students the title was Premonitions (Vorgefuehle).  As we know, Schoenberg did not want titles attached, but agreed to do so because of his publisher.

I then asked my students: "Composed in 1909, what might Schoenberg have sensed in the atmosphere, what were these "premonitions," as described by his music?   

Yes, well, "Vorgefuehle" ("Before feelings") indeed!

[Lisztianwagner]

Thank you for this great summary, I am going to listen to this work today. Well done!

+ 1

Thank you both, I'm glad if that can help to light the interest to revisit this piece.

Leo, if I may ask, what recordings of Five Pieces for Orchestra do you have? Personally speaking, my favourite is the Boulez, I think he had a special touch for Schönberg's music; but also the Rattle and the Craft are marvelous.

When I was teaching Advanced Placement European History, I played this first movement and told the students the title was Premonitions (Vorgefuehle).  As we know, Schoenberg did not want titles attached, but agreed to do so because of his publisher.

I then asked my students: "Composed in 1909, what might Schoenberg have sensed in the atmosphere, what were these "premonitions," as described by his music?   

Yes, well, "Vorgefuehle" ("Before feelings") indeed!

Great! Studying History with examples of classical music certainly makes the subject more intriguing (although History can be very intriguing by itself). Out of curiosity, what did they answer?

Five Pieces for Orchestra could be matched with Three Piano Pieces, which was composed in the same year; they share a similar deep, powerful emotional expressiveness, the juxtaposition of contrasts in moods, colours and dynamics, and the quality of compressing the poetical urgency in a concise form.

[Cato]

Thank you both, I'm glad if that can help to light the interest to revisit this piece.

Leo, if I may ask, what recordings of Five Pieces for Orchestra do you have? Personally speaking, my favourite is the Boulez, I think he had a special touch for Schönberg's music; but also the Rattle and the Craft are marvelous.

DGG had a recording with James Levine and the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra: that CD became my #1!

https://www.amazon.com/Alban-Berg-Orchestral-Orchestra-Schoenberg/dp/B00000E3HC/ref=sr_1_1?crid=33J8KNWRUH52F&keywords=Schoenberg+5+Pieces+Levine&qid=1666059128&s=music&sprefix=schoenberg+5+pieces+levine+%2Cpopular%2C127&sr=1-1

Also, close to a tie with the above: a classic performance and a classic in the technology of recording!

Antal Dorati and the London Symphony Orchestra!

Great! Studying History with examples of classical music certainly makes the subject more intriguing (although History can be very intriguing by itself). Out of curiosity, what did they answer?

Most chose World War I, while some thought of Viennese Anti-Semitism and the coming of the Holocaust, not to mention the rise of Communism and Totalitarianism of all genres.

[Leo K.]

Thank you both, I'm glad if that can help to light the interest to revisit this piece.

Leo, if I may ask, what recordings of Five Pieces for Orchestra do you have? Personally speaking, my favourite is the Boulez, I think he had a special touch for Schönberg's music; but also the Rattle and the Craft are marvelous.

Sure! I have Barenboim (Chigago), Zender (Rundfunk Staarbrucken), Levine (Berlin Phil.), Dohnanyi (Cleveland), and Craft (with LSO). I need to revisit all of these soon as they are all amazing. I agree the Craft is a great, and Levine and Dohnanyi are other favorites of mine.

[Lisztianwagner]

DGG had a recording with James Levine and the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra: that CD became my #1!

https://www.amazon.com/Alban-Berg-Orchestral-Orchestra-Schoenberg/dp/B00000E3HC/ref=sr_1_1?crid=33J8KNWRUH52F&keywords=Schoenberg+5+Pieces+Levine&qid=1666059128&s=music&sprefix=schoenberg+5+pieces+levine+%2Cpopular%2C127&sr=1-1

Also, close to a tie with the above: a classic performance and a classic in the technology of recording!

Antal Dorati and the London Symphony Orchestra!

Sure! I have Barenboim (Chigago), Zender (Rundfunk Staarbrucken), Levine (Berlin Phil.), Dohnanyi (Cleveland), and Craft (with LSO). I need to revisit all of these soon as they are all amazing. I agree the Craft is a great, and Levine and Dohnanyi are other favorites of mine.

I would need to listen to all those recordings, apart from Craft/LSO (and Dorati/LSO, which I listened to yesterday), I don't know any of them. I would like to try Levine/Berlin Phil, since it's so appreciated. Dorati's performance was very thrilling, especially Vergangenes and Farben, very evocative and atmospheric; but it sounded a little strange in the fortissimo of Vorgefühle, as if the orchestral dynamics was unbalanced in some instruments, as well as not aggressive enough.

[staxomega]

I am delighted to find another reference level cycle of Schoenberg's String Quartets, the other for me is Arditti.

Diotima aren't as scorched earth as Arditti but are more a middle ground between Arditti and Schoenberg Quartet. I have been critical of Schoenberg Quartet's interpretations in the past, but I've come around to them; I've always liked Kolisch and LaSalle so it's unfair on the Schoenberg Quartet.

Diotima are phenomenal- spry, lithe, cheeky, serious, they have it all and at a level of virtuosity that matches Arditti. There is the sense the music is just spontaneously being played on the spot.

[Karl Henning]

I am delighted to find another reference level cycle of Schoenberg's String Quartets, the other for me is Arditti.

Diotima aren't as scorched earth as Arditti but are more a middle ground between Arditti and Schoenberg Quartet. I have been critical of Schoenberg Quartet's interpretations in the past, but I've come around to them; I've always liked Kolisch and LaSalle so it's unfair on the Schoenberg Quartet.

Diotima are phenomenal- spry, lithe, cheeky, serious, they have it all and at a level of virtuosity that matches Arditti. There is the sense the music is just spontaneously being played on the spot.

Superb.

[Lisztianwagner]

I am delighted to find another reference level cycle of Schoenberg's String Quartets, the other for me is Arditti.

Diotima aren't as scorched earth as Arditti but are more a middle ground between Arditti and Schoenberg Quartet. I have been critical of Schoenberg Quartet's interpretations in the past, but I've come around to them; I've always liked Kolisch and LaSalle so it's unfair on the Schoenberg Quartet.

Diotima are phenomenal- spry, lithe, cheeky, serious, they have it all and at a level of virtuosity that matches Arditti. There is the sense the music is just spontaneously being played on the spot.

I don't know this set, but it looks absolutely interesting, especially for the presence of the Presto in C major and the Scherzo in F major, I don't think I've ever listened to those Schönberg's works!

[relm1]

How would you describe the difference between Webern and Schoenberg's sound world? 

[Karl Henning]

How would you describe the difference between Webern and Schoenberg's sound world? 

Schoenberg's is generally rich, often voluptuous. Webern's mature style is always spare and specific.

[Lisztianwagner]

How would you describe the difference between Webern and Schoenberg's sound world?

Schoenberg's is generally rich, often voluptuous. Webern's mature style is always spare and specific.

Agreed, although Schönberg doesn't lack in conciseness, his music is generally dense and complex, continually developed in different combinations; while Webern is certainly brief and essential, fragmented, with silence almost becoming a sort of new tone colour (at least, it is my impression).
I think Schönberg was right about describing Webern's music as "a novel in a breath".

[staxomega]

How would you describe the difference between Webern and Schoenberg's sound world?

Webern can easily be summed up by me as "mystery." The works are almost all a bit too similar to each other though I do enjoy them a lot, and like all great music rewards intent/undivided listening. Schoenberg is tough to classify, like two of my favorites Pierrot Lunaire or String Trio are what I'd consider tense, but that tension is not present most of his other works. I agree with Karl and Lisztianwagner on their general descriptions.

I don't know this set, but it looks absolutely interesting, especially for the presence of the Presto in C major and the Scherzo in F major, I don't think I've ever listened to those Schönberg's works!

They seem to be quite rarely recorded. Sort of amiable romantic type of pieces, if I was listening blind and had not heard them before I wouldn't have guessed they were by Schoenberg. There is almost a pastoral like quality to Presto in C major.

[Lisztianwagner]

Crosspost from WOAYLTN:

Some thoughts about Von Heute auf Morgen: I listened to this opera for the first time and I really appreciated it, it isn't one of Schönberg's most famous works (a bit unfairly in my opinion), but it is an absolutely remarkable composition, very thrilling and intriguing, especially for what concerns the music and the use of the voices. As a matter of fact, the libretto is simple and generic, not particularly profound, witty and moved, although it is based on a quite interesting argument like the relationship between outwardnes and inwardness, appearance and substance, what is supposed to be modern that often reveals itself, in several aspects of life, merely ephemeral and frail, literally passing from today to tomorrow, and so it can be seen as a sort of ironic critics of some social tendencies; but nonetheless it is masterfully completed and deepened by the music. In fact, if the text has a light-hearted tone, the music is more complex, absolutely beautiful, suggestive and captivating, as well as immediately recognizable as schönbergian in its density of the contrapuntal lines, where all the sections, following the developments of the series (it was the first opera composed with the dodecaphonic method), are brilliantly combined and juxtaposed in continuous transformations to elaborate thick, but clear and solid textures; in the great variety of the timbres and orchestral colours, that gives the impression to have a huge amount of expressive possibilities to use, but also in the use of dissonances and harmonic contrasts to evoke haunting atmospheres, full of tensions and strong emotions, creating in this way a musical weaving which goes beyond and deeper than what the action simply shows and what is simply said; indeed in this opera, Schönberg's music, in its rhythmic flexibility, breaking and moving the inner plot, in its flowing on vivid colours and timbral inventiveness, seems to be really able to express the unconscious and to bring out the deep, true feelings hidden inside the characters, who reveal through the melodies much more than what they actually do on the staging. Anyway, at the same time, this quality puzzles me a little, if it is thought that, in the intention of the composer, the opera should be a comedy, but if I hadn't known it, I would have never called it a comic opera; honestly the mood sounds anything but light, on the contrary, it sounds sharp, tense and restless; but on the other hand, it results to be shrewd and humorous in the parodies created.