Pettersson's Pavilion

[paulb]

. In his chosen niche he could certainly achieve greatness,

As a  admirer of Shostakovich's 1st vc, i do feel Pettersson surpasses Shostakovich.
The Pettersson 2nd vc is the finest vc ever written.
His syms will be acknowledge, but that will take some decades. For many reasons.
He's  already a  great composer, just not acknowledged due to lack of awareness.
And no other composer matches his 12th  in the genre of choral sym.
Beethoven's 9th comes awefully close

[The new erato]

Wasn't it Bloch that wrote "Voice in the Wilderness"?

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

And no other composer matches his 12th  in the genre of choral sym.

I like Pettersson, but I feel it's time for you to calm down now! 

[BachQ]

Some of his symphonies makes a powerful emotional impact (and I love them); that doesn't in my view automatically make him a great composer (which I doubt he is).

Making an emotional impact is certainly only one aspect of a great work, lots of popular music stirs the emotions very powerfully.

What confuses me is your statement that, on the one hand, you LOVE Pettersson's symphonies; but, on the other hand, you do NOT think Pettersson is a great composer.  If you LOVE something, doesn't that mean that, to you personally, it's GREAT?  Or perhaps you're saying that it's GREAT to you personally, but it's not GREAT in comparison to other composers .........

[The new erato]

 
What confuses me is your statement that, on the one hand, you LOVE Pettersson's symphonies; but, on the other hand, you do NOT think Pettersson is a great composer.  If you LOVE something, doesn't that mean that, to you personally, it's GREAT?  Or perhaps you're saying that it's GREAT to you personally, but it's not GREAT in comparison to other composers .........

Love is a subjective judgement and Greatness is objective. Just as I may (example) find that I don't like Beethovens music, I may still be able to realize his greatness. Greatness is NOT subjective. I may love junk food but still realize it is not a gourmet experience.

Failure to separate between what one likes/loves, and what is great art, is a common fallacy on this board. To me it is not confusing at all - but to realize the difference requires some knowledge.

[BachQ]

Love is a subjective judgement and Greatness is objective. Just as I may (example) find that I don't like Beethovens music, I may still be able to realize his greatness. Greatness is NOT subjective. I may love junk food but still realize it is not a gourmet experience.

Failure to separate between what one likes/loves, and what is great art, is a common fallacy on this board. To me it is not confusing at all - but to realize the difference requires some knowledge.

I'm glad you used the word "fallacy" ....... Because the common fallacy at GMG and elsewhere is that somewhere, somehow there exists an objective set of criteria against which we can determine and measure artistic "greatness."  Where can I find this list of "factors which determine the level of artistic greatness"?

At the end of the day, just as LOVE is ultimately subjective, so too is GREATNESS ultimately subjective.

In my case, everything which I LOVE, I also consider to be GREAT.

I love Beethoven's music, and I think it's great.  But whether other people think it's great makes no difference TO ME.

To love something is to deem it worthy of greatness.

[The new erato]

I love my Audi and find it great for my driving needs, but a Ferrari it ain't.

[BachQ]

I love my Audi and find it great for my driving needs, but a Ferrari it ain't.

"I love Pettersson and I find his music to be great for my aesthetic, emotional, intellectual, and spiritual needs ...... But a Beethoven he ain't ........"

[Sergeant Rock]

I love my Audi and find it great for my driving needs, but a Ferrari it ain't.

But they are both great automobiles.

Sarge

[greg]

But they are both great automobiles.

Sarge

not if you live in the city.....

[Lilas Pastia]

Don't forget that the Caprice disc has an ESSENTIAL filler: a collection of the Barefoot Songs that includes the one that Pettersson works ou as the epilogue to his concerto. This incredibly moving catharsis goes for naught if you don't know its original garb. Exactly the same as the Berg concerto and the Bach Cantata 60.  Ican't imagine anyone pretending to 'know' the Berg concerto with no prior knowledge of the Bach chorale. This is clearly a case (CPO) where a huge opportunity was lost.

[The new erato]

I'm glad you used the word "fallacy" ....... Because the common fallacy at GMG and elsewhere is that somewhere, somehow there exists an objective set of criteria against which we can determine and measure artistic "greatness."  Where can I find this list of "factors which determine the level of artistic greatness"?

At the end of the day, just as LOVE is ultimately subjective, so too is GREATNESS ultimately subjective.

In my case, everything which I LOVE, I also consider to be GREAT.

I love Beethoven's music, and I think it's great.  But whether other people think it's great makes no difference TO ME.

To love something is to deem it worthy of greatness.

The problem with that kind of thinking, is that it leads to the conclusion that the music that is loved by the most, also then must be the greatest music. And that the billions of people enjoying it, are automatically right and immune to any arguments that they ought to listen to better stuff. By that criterion, Petterson is certainly very close to the bottom on the greatness scale.

I fully realize the problems of meting out criteria for artistic greatness, and that this requires knowledge and study (and even then te scholars don't always agree); but that doesn't mean these criteria doesn't exist.

[Ephemerid]

The problem with that kind of thinking, is that it leads to the conclusion that the music that is loved by the most, also then must be the greatest music. And that the billions of people enjoying it, are automatically right and immune to any arguments that they ought to listen to better stuff. By that criterion, Petterson is certainly very close to the bottom on the greatness scale.

And by that criterion, Brittney Spears is at the top of the greatness scale. 

[The new erato]

Billions of flies can't be wrong; turds are great!!!!

[BachQ]

(and even then the scholars don't always agree)

Amen, brother!

Not only do scholars NOT agree, but they often are found to have deeply flawed perceptions when viewed in historical context.  Back in 1799, C.H. Graun was considered to be one of the "top 4" greatest composers, along with Handel, Bach and Haydn.  Today, Graun is nowhere to be found.  Most of Schubert's works were barely appreciated when he was alive.  Brahms's First Piano Concerto was hissed at and his violin concerto was dismissed by scholars.

If you love something, it's because, for a variety of reasons, you think it's great.  Would you love something more just because numerous other, highly educated scholars also think it's "great"?  Would you love something less just because other people deem it to be not "great"?

[BachQ]

The tree which we call Bruce O. Hodges has yielded some fruit.  What sayeth Bruce?

Pettersson: Symphony No. 12 "The Dead of the Square" (1974) (Honeck/Swedish Radio and Eric Ericson Chamber Choirs/Swedish Radio SO) - After stumbling across this disc, and since I like choral music in general--and these two groups in particular--it seemed like a good bet.  (It's my introduction to this composer.)

Inspired by events in Chile, the work is part political protest with texts by Pablo Neruda, and (at least on first hearing) very Mahlerian in scope, but Pettersson freely mixes more dissonance with his tonality.  From the review on MusicWeb: "...often touched with desperation as the deaths and injustices perpetrated in Chile are tracked as emblematic of social injustices on an international stage."  The overall effect is agitated, tormented, bleak.  The performances by Manfred Honeck, the two expert choirs and the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra are all marvelous, and the sound effectively captures what must be a stage crammed with musicians.

--Bruce

[bhodges]

The tree which we call Bruce O. Hodges has yielded some fruit.  What sayeth Bruce?

 

Are you a Pettersson fan?  (I haven't really followed much of this thread.)

--Bruce

[BachQ]

Hi Bruce.  We didn't realize that you were a Pettersson fan ........ But we're glad that you reviewed the Twelfth , and made the review available to us via transplantation .........  0:) ....... Keep those reviews coming ........ 

[bhodges]

Hi Bruce.  We didn't realize that you were a Pettersson fan ........ But we're glad that you reviewed the Twelfth , and made the review available to us via transplantation .........  0:) ....... Keep those reviews coming ........ 

It's the first one I've heard, and I gather that all of them are quite different from one another.  Apparently this one (from 2006) was the last recording in that CPO cycle.

--Bruce

[S709]

Don't know if anyone else posted this yet, but you can watch all of Pettersson 7 on youtube ! 

Check it out here.