The football (soccer) thread

[Madiel]

Waits patiently for someone to explain the whole concept of promotion and regulation to an American... 

I don't know how many tiers of football clubs there are in the English system. At least 5 or 6 professional tiers? Then several more below that.

The American model of franchises, that might be bought and sold across cities but are fundamentally secure in their league, is completely alien to how football/soccer works in Europe. There are thousands of clubs dreaming of their ability to rise up the ranks.

[Holden]

I'll do that.

There are four professional and at least four semi professional leagues in the UK and they operate in a tier system. The Premier league is the highest and the lowest professional league is called League Two.

Let's look at Luton Town who have just been promoted to the Premier League. A few years ago they were in the National League (top semi pro league) and won promotion to League Two by coming either first or second in the NL. Over the last few years they have been promoted through League One, The Championship (where they were this year) and next Year will be in the EPL for the first time. This is the most lucrative league because of TV broadcast rights.

Luton weren't automatically promoted. The first two teams in the Championship (Burnley and Sheffield United) won automatic promotion and the next four teams had a knock out play off series to fill the third EPL promotion spot. Luton, who finished third beat the sixth place team over a two leg semi final play off and then beat Coventry, the other semi final winner, in a sudden death one off final at Wembley.

All the leagues have this system. The bottom three EPL teams (Leeds, Leicester and Southampton) drop down to the Championship.

I understand what I've written and I'm hoping you do too.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I'll do that.

There are four professional and at least four semi professional leagues in the UK and they operate in a tier system. The Premier league is the highest and the lowest professional league is called League Two.

Let's look at Luton Town who have just been promoted to the Premier League. A few years ago they were in the National League (top semi pro league) and won promotion to League Two by coming either first or second in the NL. Over the last few years they have been promoted through League One, The Championship (where they were this year) and next Year will be in the EPL for the first time. This is the most lucrative league because of TV broadcast rights.

Luton weren't automatically promoted. The first two teams in the Championship (Burnley and Sheffield United) won automatic promotion and the next four teams had a knock out play off series to fill the third EPL promotion spot. Luton, who finished third beat the sixth place team over a two leg semi final play off and then beat Coventry, the other semi final winner, in a sudden death one off final at Wembley.

All the leagues have this system. The bottom three EPL teams (Leeds, Leicester and Southampton) drop down to the Championship.

I understand what I've written and I'm hoping you do too.

Thank you!  That was extremely helpful! 

PD

[Papy Oli]

How is that for a peculiar football evening:

Last night was the last game of the season in the French Ligue 2 (second division). For full fairness and equality between the clubs, the last 2-3 games are always played at the same time on the same day.

3 clubs are fighting for the top 2 promotion spots to Ligue 1:

Le Havre 72 pts
Metz 69 pts
and my club Bordeaux 69 pts (Goal difference of -3 compared to Metz)

Le Havre was up to 10 pts clear a few weeks ago and kept dropping points
Bordeaux was up to 9 points clear in second and kept dropping points
It all came down to last night's game.

For a bit of context, Bordeaux has been in steady sporting decline in the last decade when some dodgy American investors bought the club circa 2019. Last season, Bordeaux got relegated to Ligue 2 on the pitch but the mismanagement of the club and other internal tension and scandals took it to the brink of bankruptcy last July, with a looming liquidation and relegation to 5th tier football i.e the top tier of amateur football.

A buyer came through (a controversial one at that because he has bought other clubs on the brink before with some dodgy dealings, hence not a favourable reputation in the Ligue anyway) and bought the club last August. With only 2 days before the start of this season did he get the final confirmation from the league and financial authorities that we could play and play in Ligue 2 (and not further down). That meant selling our "best" (non-performing evidently) players and building the new team on mostly academy youngsters, a couple of seasoned players from Ligue 2 and a couple of key players that decided to stay at the club regardless to fight back, after accepting a 50% pay cut to help the club's finances (another 19 year old promising youngster reluctantly accepted to be sold to Southampton for 11 million euros, knowing that amount would definitely save his formative club).

The season felt like a miracle to us all if only for existing and it was a clean slate with the supporters now fully backing the mostly inexperienced team. it obviously took some time to gel and with lots of ups and downs, we eventually settled in the top three. Last bit of context, all season, for cost management reasons, the stadium capacity was kept at half, to 22K, still making it one of the biggest ligue 2 attendances.

To last night.

Knowing how important that last home game was, the stadium was sold to full attendance. 42,000 supporters filled the stadium with an atmosphere frankly not seen since we played PSG or Marseille in our better years. Some supporters even travelled from the USA, Canada or Asia to be at the game and supporting the team whatever happens, still clinging to hopes of promotion.

7.45pm kick off.

Le Havre plays at home against Dijon who fights to stay in ligue 2.
Metz at home plays against Bastia, currently 5th with nothing to play for.
Bordeaux plays in a sold out stadium against Rodez, who are also fighting to stay in Ligue 2.

Bordeaux has 5 or 6 clear chances in the first 15 minutes. still 0-0.

8.02 pm.
Rodez scores on a counter attack. 0-1. Sh!t happens, that's ok, long time to go. Cue Rodez players bundling up and celebrating in front of the Bordeaux  Kop. One Bordeaux "supporter" (from the kop association Admin team, at the time sorting a banner) somehow goes on the pitch and pushes the Rodez goal scorer to the ground. The player stays on the ground, even it looks inconspicuous. Game is stopped. The player lies down for several minutes and both teams are sent to the dressing rooms. As per the rules, If the game is stopped for more than 45 minutes it is definitely aborted and it is down to the Ligue authorities to decide the outcome or replay of the game or resuming from where it stopped at another date.

20.50
The game is definitely aborted. the Rodez player is off to hospital for concussion assessment. 42K  supporters in disbelief in the stadium. The Ligue communicates that they will take a decision/sanctions on... Monday. Our chairman makes a press conference explaining they will sue that Kop individual and also make any appeal to the Ligue on Monday.

Just around 9.45pm.

Le Havre is leading. they will be Champions. Dijon is going down.
Metz is leading too, they will finish second as it stands and go up too.

As for Bordeaux-Rodez, god knows. Because it is the last game of the season, it would seem unlikely to be replayed and is likely to be given as a default 3-0 win to Rodez. However (beside Bordeaux), one other club (Annecy) who is fighting to stay in Ligue 2 against Rodez wants our game to be resumed/replayed too because that default Rodez win would keep Rodez (and not them) up.  Quite a mess.

What that "supporter" did is unforgivable and unjustifiable. He should be banned from the stadium for life. Based on precedents, Bordeaux will probably get some point deductions for the start of next season, most likely a handful of home games behind closed doors too.

if the game is to be resumed/replayed in a few days after all, it is likely that Bordeaux will also get a 1 or 2 pts penalty for this season, so that even if we beat Rodez in that final game, we could not go up at all...while maintaining some sporting fairness for Rodez and Annecy.

For some perspective, if Bordeaux had gone up last night, they would have been breaking even financially for the start of the next season. Staying in Ligue 2, means starting the next season with a 15 million euros debt, meaning more jobs losses in the admin staff and selling some of our better players and re-weaken our team again.

You can imagine how distraught we felt last night and today. Having a club still, was a miracle for us. Fighting for promotion to the last day was a bonus. We would have accepted, albeit with the expected disappointment, to remain in Ligue 2 on the pitch...but not in last night's manner. It is heart-breaking, for the silly action of one individual, wrecking the party atmosphere and the excitement of long-suffering parents and children at the stadium. 

Now for the other oddity of the night.

As I said earlier, Le Havre was beating Dijon in the dying minutes, walking towards the Ligue 2 title.

With 30 seconds to go in injury time, due to a misunderstanding the Le Havre supporters invaded the pitch thinking they had won the game. Both teams had to go back to their dressing rooms. The game is stopped for around 20 minutes while the Havre captain and coach try to convince their supporters to go back into the terraces (note: The club had actually warned their supporters all week that any pitch invasion, even for the title, would mean lifetime bans for the individuals but also sanctions for the club!!)

Anyway, the supporters are back in their terraces eventually.

The game resumes.

There's 30 seconds left to play.

The referee whistle the official end of the game after 5 seconds.

Guess what... That's not the odd bit.

it's that bit: Only the Le Havre players ever came back on the pitch. The Dijon players did stay in their dressing room. And yet, the game resumed for 5 seconds.

Le Havre won 3-2. Cue another pitch invasion and actual title ceremony and celebrations.

not making sense to you ? Nope, nor me....

The Ligue has quite a cluster-fudge to sort out on Monday.

As a Bordeaux supporter, I am numb.

Sorry for that long post, it might be cathartic...

or not.






           

[Pohjolas Daughter]

How is that for a peculiar football evening:

Last night was the last game of the season in the French Ligue 2 (second division). For full fairness and equality between the clubs, the last 2-3 games are always played at the same time on the same day.

3 clubs are fighting for the top 2 promotion spots to Ligue 1:

Le Havre 72 pts
Metz 69 pts
and my club Bordeaux 69 pts (Goal difference of -3 compared to Metz)

Le Havre was up to 10 pts clear a few weeks ago and kept dropping points
Bordeaux was up to 9 points clear in second and kept dropping points
It all came down to last night's game.

For a bit of context, Bordeaux has been in steady sporting decline in the last decade when some dodgy American investors bought the club circa 2019. Last season, Bordeaux got relegated to Ligue 2 on the pitch but the mismanagement of the club and other internal tension and scandals took it to the brink of bankruptcy last July, with a looming liquidation and relegation to 5th tier football i.e the top tier of amateur football.

A buyer came through (a controversial one at that because he has bought other clubs on the brink before with some dodgy dealings, hence not a favourable reputation in the Ligue anyway) and bought the club last August. With only 2 days before the start of this season did he get the final confirmation from the league and financial authorities that we could play and play in Ligue 2 (and not further down). That meant selling our "best" (non-performing evidently) players and building the new team on mostly academy youngsters, a couple of seasoned players from Ligue 2 and a couple of key players that decided to stay at the club regardless to fight back, after accepting a 50% pay cut to help the club's finances (another 19 year old promising youngster reluctantly accepted to be sold to Southampton for 11 million euros, knowing that amount would definitely save his formative club).

The season felt like a miracle to us all if only for existing and it was a clean slate with the supporters now fully backing the mostly inexperienced team. it obviously took some time to gel and with lots of ups and downs, we eventually settled in the top three. Last bit of context, all season, for cost management reasons, the stadium capacity was kept at half, to 22K, still making it one of the biggest ligue 2 attendances.

To last night.

Knowing how important that last home game was, the stadium was sold to full attendance. 42,000 supporters filled the stadium with an atmosphere frankly not seen since we played PSG or Marseille in our better years. Some supporters even travelled from the USA, Canada or Asia to be at the game and supporting the team whatever happens, still clinging to hopes of promotion.

7.45pm kick off.

Le Havre plays at home against Dijon who fights to stay in ligue 2.
Metz at home plays against Bastia, currently 5th with nothing to play for.
Bordeaux plays in a sold out stadium against Rodez, who are also fighting to stay in Ligue 2.

Bordeaux has 5 or 6 clear chances in the first 15 minutes. still 0-0.

8.02 pm.
Rodez scores on a counter attack. 0-1. Sh!t happens, that's ok, long time to go. Cue Rodez players bundling up and celebrating in front of the Bordeaux  Kop. One Bordeaux "supporter" (from the kop association Admin team, at the time sorting a banner) somehow goes on the pitch and pushes the Rodez goal scorer to the ground. The player stays on the ground, even it looks inconspicuous. Game is stopped. The player lies down for several minutes and both teams are sent to the dressing rooms. As per the rules, If the game is stopped for more than 45 minutes it is definitely aborted and it is down to the Ligue authorities to decide the outcome or replay of the game or resuming from where it stopped at another date.

20.50
The game is definitely aborted. the Rodez player is off to hospital for concussion assessment. 42K  supporters in disbelief in the stadium. The Ligue communicates that they will take a decision/sanctions on... Monday. Our chairman makes a press conference explaining they will sue that Kop individual and also make any appeal to the Ligue on Monday.

Just around 9.45pm.

Le Havre is leading. they will be Champions. Dijon is going down.
Metz is leading too, they will finish second as it stands and go up too.

As for Bordeaux-Rodez, god knows. Because it is the last game of the season, it would seem unlikely to be replayed and is likely to be given as a default 3-0 win to Rodez. However (beside Bordeaux), one other club (Annecy) who is fighting to stay in Ligue 2 against Rodez wants our game to be resumed/replayed too because that default Rodez win would keep Rodez (and not them) up.  Quite a mess.

What that "supporter" did is unforgivable and unjustifiable. He should be banned from the stadium for life. Based on precedents, Bordeaux will probably get some point deductions for the start of next season, most likely a handful of home games behind closed doors too.

if the game is to be resumed/replayed in a few days after all, it is likely that Bordeaux will also get a 1 or 2 pts penalty for this season, so that even if we beat Rodez in that final game, we could not go up at all...while maintaining some sporting fairness for Rodez and Annecy.

For some perspective, if Bordeaux had gone up last night, they would have been breaking even financially for the start of the next season. Staying in Ligue 2, means starting the next season with a 15 million euros debt, meaning more jobs losses in the admin staff and selling some of our better players and re-weaken our team again.

You can imagine how distraught we felt last night and today. Having a club still, was a miracle for us. Fighting for promotion to the last day was a bonus. We would have accepted, albeit with the expected disappointment, to remain in Ligue 2 on the pitch...but not in last night's manner. It is heart-breaking, for the silly action of one individual, wrecking the party atmosphere and the excitement of long-suffering parents and children at the stadium. 

Now for the other oddity of the night.

As I said earlier, Le Havre was beating Dijon in the dying minutes, walking towards the Ligue 2 title.

With 30 seconds to go in injury time, due to a misunderstanding the Le Havre supporters invaded the pitch thinking they had won the game. Both teams had to go back to their dressing rooms. The game is stopped for around 20 minutes while the Havre captain and coach try to convince their supporters to go back into the terraces (note: The club had actually warned their supporters all week that any pitch invasion, even for the title, would mean lifetime bans for the individuals but also sanctions for the club!!)

Anyway, the supporters are back in their terraces eventually.

The game resumes.

There's 30 seconds left to play.

The referee whistle the official end of the game after 5 seconds.

Guess what... That's not the odd bit.

it's that bit: Only the Le Havre players ever came back on the pitch. The Dijon players did stay in their dressing room. And yet, the game resumed for 5 seconds.

Le Havre won 3-2. Cue another pitch invasion and actual title ceremony and celebrations.

not making sense to you ? Nope, nor me....

The Ligue has quite a cluster-fudge to sort out on Monday.

As a Bordeaux supporter, I am numb.

Sorry for that long post, it might be cathartic...

or not.






         

Wow!  And so sorry about your team--what a nightmare!  And bizarre for all of the teams involved!

By the way, the one thing that I wasn't able to follow:  what is the kop association admin team?  Is that some sort of head of your team's fan club?

PD

[Papy Oli]

By the way, the one thing that I wasn't able to follow:  what is the kop association admin team?  Is that some sort of head of your team's fan club?

PD

Yes, the perpetrator that entered the pitch yesterday is one of the key members managing the supporters' club in that particular south terrace. We're talking about somebody in his late 30's/early 40's, not an 18 year old who lost the plot.

Sadly, this is not the first time some of their members have been problematic, the actual head of that group clashed with some of our own players (!!) on the pitch during a game last season when we were relegated (racist allegations against within the team, found unfounded in court last week). Even more sadly, these supporters have actually behaved really well all season, singing non-stop home and away behind the team.

It is such a waste...   

[Madiel]

Goodness me, what an epic. That's crazy.

I can't personally understand the mindset of someone who decides to get involved in any way, rather than just spectate. As it is, some of the behaviour of supporters in the stands - certain chants, booing, a ridiculously one-sided view of every referee call - is something that I am against. Actually going onto the pitch is a whole other level. A life ban is absolutely appropriate for the man who pushed a player.

[Florestan]

I can't personally understand the mindset of someone who decides to get involved in any way, rather than just spectate. As it is, some of the behaviour of supporters in the stands - certain chants, booing, a ridiculously one-sided view of every referee call - is something that I am against.

Remember than in the Eastern Roman Empire (wrongly called the Byzantine Empire) factions at the hippodrome could make or change an Emperor... 

[DaveF]

How is that for a peculiar football evening:

That's quite a story - although I see Metz won 3-2, which would have meant Bordeaux had to score 5 to gain promotion (it could have happened, I'm sure).  A lot of us "of a certain age" still think of Bordeaux as a top club (I was just reminding myself of former players - Tigana, Zidane, Dugarry, Lizarazu - wow!).

A lot of your story (apart from the pitch invasion) sounds horribly familiar to supporters of my club, Coventry City (subject of some discussion earlier in the thread).  Relegation from the Premiership 22 years ago, move to a brand-new stadium which was then sold to pay debts, several seasons sharing stadiums with clubs up to 30 miles away, bankruptcy, purchase by venture capital company 2 hours before liquidation, relegation to the 4th tier... but then just missing out on promotion back to the Premiership by one penalty kick.  So let's make a date for the Champions League Final in 10 years time - Les Girondins v Coventry City

[vandermolen]

I martyred myself today by agreeing to go to a GARDEN CENTRE (     ) with my wife instead of watching the Cup Final (it would have been different if Chelsea had been playing). Anyway, I got home in time to watch the second half and felt that Man City deserved their victory.

[Florestan]

a GARDEN CENTRE

What is a garden center, Jeffrey? 

[vandermolen]

What is a garden center, Jeffrey? 

Somewhere where you can buy plants, compost, gravel for pathways, gardening tools, etcetc
I spend most of my life in such places Andrei 

[Florestan]

Somewhere where you can buy plants, compost, gravel for pathways, gardening tools, etcetc

Worth a visit every 10 years or so. 

I spend most of my life in such places Andrei 

Oh, dear! OH, DEAR! Now I truly do understand why you like doom-and-gloom, defiant and valedictory music, Jeffrey. 

[vandermolen]

Worth a visit every 10 years or so. 

Oh, dear! OH, DEAR! Now I truly do understand why you like doom-and-gloom, defiant and valedictory music, Jeffrey. 

Why do you think I have been listening to so much Allan Pettersson recently Andrei? 

[Florestan]

Why do you think I have been listening to so much Allan Pettersson recently Andrei? 

I do pity you, Jeffrey, I really do...     

I don't know whether there is any Petterssonia plant, but I do know there is a Fuchsia, so I heartily recommend you Robert Fuchs' serenades --- for once just let go all thoughts of wife and garden centers and just wallow in the nonchalant, devil-may-care, happy-go-lucky soundworld of Alt Wien. Then tomorrow you can go, with renewed forces, into full Pettersson mode --- if it suits you anymore, that is. 

[Papy Oli]

Goodness me, what an epic. That's crazy.

I can't personally understand the mindset of someone who decides to get involved in any way, rather than just spectate. As it is, some of the behaviour of supporters in the stands - certain chants, booing, a ridiculously one-sided view of every referee call - is something that I am against. Actually going onto the pitch is a whole other level. A life ban is absolutely appropriate for the man who pushed a player.

The head of the kop released a statement, apologising to the teams, staffs, spectators.. and taking full responsibility for their member's action, but somehow explaining this by the fact the kop was full nearly 2 hours before the game and red hot with anticipation and hopes. "Their emerit historical member" acted against nature but as a result of this context. And then went on blaming the referee for stopping the game for something much less worse than past interrupted games.

Guess they didn't read the room, or stadium rather...

Beggars belief really. 

[Papy Oli]

That's quite a story - although I see Metz won 3-2, which would have meant Bordeaux had to score 5 to gain promotion (it could have happened, I'm sure).  A lot of us "of a certain age" still think of Bordeaux as a top club (I was just reminding myself of former players - Tigana, Zidane, Dugarry, Lizarazu - wow!).

A lot of your story (apart from the pitch invasion) sounds horribly familiar to supporters of my club, Coventry City (subject of some discussion earlier in the thread).  Relegation from the Premiership 22 years ago, move to a brand-new stadium which was then sold to pay debts, several seasons sharing stadiums with clubs up to 30 miles away, bankruptcy, purchase by venture capital company 2 hours before liquidation, relegation to the 4th tier... but then just missing out on promotion back to the Premiership by one penalty kick.  So let's make a date for the Champions League Final in 10 years time - Les Girondins v Coventry City

I'd settle for that with you 

Your club's story is a tough ride too, blimey!!

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I martyred myself today by agreeing to go to a GARDEN CENTRE (     ) with my wife instead of watching the Cup Final (it would have been different if Chelsea had been playing). Anyway, I got home in time to watch the second half and felt that Man City deserved their victory.

Well done Jeffrey!  And you must have been thinking about the old adage "Happy Wife, happy life" [though probably whilst checking your cell phone for score updates...]?   

PD

[vandermolen]

Well done Jeffrey!  And you must have been thinking about the old adage "Happy Wife, happy life" [though probably whilst checking your cell phone for score updates...]?   

PD

Actually they had the TV on at the garden centre and some of the staff were watching the match.

[Lisztianwagner]

I martyred myself today by agreeing to go to a GARDEN CENTRE (     ) with my wife instead of watching the Cup Final (it would have been different if Chelsea had been playing). Anyway, I got home in time to watch the second half and felt that Man City deserved their victory.

Your story reminds me an episode of The Simpsons, where Marge makes Homer have a tour at an apple cider factory, while he would have preferred to stay at home and watch the baseball World Series.