The Audiophile Debate

[Fëanor]

Pfft, that's nothing.  IsoAcoustics charges up to $899.00 - but offers sales as low as $699.00 - for this laminated Maple butcher block with feet.  Their ad copy: "Combining the mass of a thick butcher block with IsoAcoustics patented isolation, DELOS provides a low noise floor by eliminating the effects of structure-borne vibrations."



People buy this stuff.

Gotta laugh 

I've never found that swapping, cable, interconnects, or AC (mains) cords has made any difference I could positively recognize; likewise isolation devices though they might work under some circumstances ... but then again I've never tried, e.g. Nordost 'Valhalla' nor MIT 'Magnum Opus' speaker cable for instance.

[AnotherSpin]

If you really believe that, be my guest. Just be aware that the laws of physics are against you. And this is my very last reply to you, here or everywhere. There is a Romanian saying:  Nu e nebun cine e nebun, e nebun cine se pune cu nebunul.

I spent a few days in Bucharest just over a year ago, when I was forced to flee from a Russian missiles attacks on my city. I was pleasantly impressed by the Romanians' hospitality and the beauty of the country. However, my knowledge of various languages is too limited to understand your phrase. I suppose there is something very nice there.

I have already said it above several times and can only repeat it again. I am not trying to change anyone's mind about anything. You have your ideas, I have mine. Do we really have to think alike?

[Florestan]

I spent a few days in Bucharest just over a year ago, when I was forced to flee from a Russian missiles attack on my city. I was pleasantly impressed by the Romanians' hospitality and the beauty of the country. However, my knowledge of various languages is too limited to understand your phrase. I suppose there is something very nice there.

I have already said it above several times and can only repeat it again. I am not trying to change anyone's mind about anything. You have your ideas, I have mine. Do we really have to think alike?

Fuck Putin and Russia! Slava Ukrainy!

[AnotherSpin]

Poor grammar aside, this perfectly exempifies audiophile self-delusion. 

I can write to you on my native language, but you will not be able to understand it.

[AnotherSpin]

Slava Ukrainy!

Героям Слава!

[AnotherSpin]

You are propagating lies and falsehoods.  Lies and falsehoods should be pointed out everywhere, all the time. 

Mind you, no one here is saying that you are a liar. You have your views, someone else has theirs. Do you necessarily need to put labels? What's wrong with you? I hope it's not some incurable disease and you'll be fine. Try drinking warm water in the morning in small sips.

[AnotherSpin]

Gotta laugh 

I've never found that swapping, cable, interconnects, or AC (mains) cords has made any difference I could positively recognize; likewise isolation devices though they might work under some circumstances ... but then again I've never tried, e.g. Nordost 'Valhalla' nor MIT 'Magnum Opus' speaker cable for instance.

This is exactly the case. You've driven a Yugo and you try to convince the owner of an Aston Martin that all cars drive the same way because they all have four wheels.

You can also, of course, recall the laws of physics and say something about wheel traction, friction or Newton's laws. All this is solemn true, but Yugo and Aston Martin are not the same thing, whatever the holder of universal objective knowledge Todd may claim... Lets talk about self-delusion now :-)

[AnotherSpin]

Couldn't find Florestan's original post, copying from Harry's comment:

"I certainly agree to disagree in matters of opinion, preferences and taste --- which are subjective. Physics, though, is a hard science based on facts and data which do not depend on subjective preferences. Anyone --- and I mean, anyone --- who really believes that switching the jacks of the same cable results in a different sound is a madman --- and I mean, a madman, ie one who lives in a world of his own which has got little, if anything, to do with the real world.

Over and out."

Oh, what a kindergarten. Physics is endlessly changing. Newton's laws in their modern formulation are different from formulations of Newton's. The third law is only applicable when the speed is negligible compared to the speed of light. Nothing is hard here, my friend. Only a very naïve person would base their argument on the idea that physics, classical or modern, explains anything more or less finally.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Couldn't find Florestan's original post, copying from Harry's comment:

"I certainly agree to disagree in matters of opinion, preferences and taste --- which are subjective. Physics, though, is a hard science based on facts and data which do not depend on subjective preferences. Anyone --- and I mean, anyone --- who really believes that switching the jacks of the same cable results in a different sound is a madman --- and I mean, a madman, ie one who lives in a world of his own which has got little, if anything, to do with the real world.

Over and out."

Oh, what a kindergarten. Physics is endlessly changing. Newton's laws in their modern formulation are different from formulations of Newton's. The third law is only applicable when the speed is negligible compared to the speed of light. Nothing is hard here, my friend. Only a very naïve person would base their argument on the idea that physics, classical or modern, explains anything more or less finally.

So  @Florestan too.  I expect that you didn't leave Ukraine with much on your back (or in a car or by bus or walking?)...like as in no stereo equipment--probably just a few suitcases of clothing, some photos, etc.?

Do you know whether or not your house/condo/apartment building is still intact?

PD

p.s.  Currently watching Svitolina vs. Azarenka.

[AnotherSpin]

So  @Florestan too.  I expect that you didn't leave Ukraine with much on your back (or in a car or by bus or walking?)...like as in no stereo equipment--probably just a few suitcases of clothing, some photos, etc.?

Do you know whether or not your house/condo/apartment building is still intact?

PD

p.s.  Currently watching Svitolina vs. Azarenka.

I left home with several family members a few days after the invasion started. We managed to take a few suitcases of belongings, etc. with us. We managed to hire a taxi to the border with Romania and went to Germany after that.

A few months after that we returned back home. Although missile and drone attacks continue until now, we are used to it and it is not so scary anymore. My family's flat was not damaged.

Svitolina is from Odessa, my hometown. We are in a music forum, so it might be appropriate to say that it is also the city where Emil Gilels, David Oistrakh, Nathan Milstein, Sviatoslav Richter started their careers.

[Todd]

Mind you, no one here is saying that you are a liar.

Edited by moderator. Personal attacks have no space in GMG. You were all warned.

[AnotherSpin]

You clearly missed the point.  ...

I mentioned the things which are obvious to me. I accept that another person, such as you or someone else, may have an opposite conclusions — for me it is not wrong or correct, it is different. My perceptions, based on personal experience, do not change that in any way, and I am in no way bothered by your disagreement.

...

Rest of post edited by moderator. Personal attacks have no space on GMG.

[71 dB]

Oh, what a kindergarten. Physics is endlessly changing. Newton's laws in their modern formulation are different from formulations of Newton's. The third law is only applicable when the speed is negligible compared to the speed of light. Nothing is hard here, my friend. Only a very naïve person would base their argument on the idea that physics, classical or modern, explains anything more or less finally.

Everything (horses, arrows etc.) moved at negligible speed compared to the speed of light in the days of Newton. Should the people have said: "Lets not trust these laws of Newton despite of all the evidence for them to work very well, because a few centuries from now someone named Albert Einstein might come up with a new law of relativity."?

Do you use relativistic physics to calculate how cars accelerate? I don't and nor should you. When you calculate the orbits of GPS satellites that's when you use relativistic physics for more accurate results.

[Todd]

likewise isolation devices though they might work under some circumstances ...

I'd love to see the circumstances under which such devices would or could make any difference.  Audio engineers account for isolation in their designs, and most manufacturers include some type of feet for their electronics, often rubbery doodads.  I've never seen mention of isolation devices for professional rack-mounted equipment, including gear used in recording and mastering studios.  Effective isolation devices are just more audiophile myths - and as this thread amply demonstrates, there are lots of those.

[AnotherSpin]

Everything (horses, arrows etc.) moved at negligible speed compared to the speed of light in the days of Newton. Should the people have said: "Lets not trust these laws of Newton despite of all the evidence for them to work very well, because a few centuries from now someone named Albert Einstein might come up with a new law of relativity."?

Do you use relativistic physics to calculate how cars accelerate? I don't and nor should you. When you calculate the orbits of GPS satellites that's when you use relativistic physics for more accurate results.

I gave the example that even the most fundamental concepts of physics change over time. Therefore references to the principles of physics are not hard enough.

Comparing audio components by measuring their parameters does not seem serious to me. I remember a few decades ago, frequency range was an important indicator. Everyone wanted a bigger number at the top and a smaller number at the bottom. Or, the more watts, the better. Over time, they figured it out, finally being able to understand that that is not all there is to the sound.

One just can not measure what heard or felt. Can we understand why we love this or that by taking measurements?

I have no idea what the specifications of my current audio are. What frequencies, how many watts and so on. I just don't know, maybe there is somewhere in the booklet, which I can't remember where I keep either. And I had no idea what the specs were of my last set. But the current set sounds different, and overall better to me.

A couple of weeks ago I replaced a couple of ethernet cables, from the computer to the switch and from the switch to the streamer. One pair of the cables for the other pair. Both pairs are relatively inexpensive. One pair is from Meicord, Germany, the other is from Supra, Sweden. Changing to Supra made a difference to the sound. I like it better now. What are the physical parameters of both pairs of cables I have no idea. In my previous audio set the Meicord sounded better than Supra. I also used one of the Meicord cables to connect the optical/ethernet box to the router, instead of the standard noname cable. Another noticeable improvement in sound. Go figure. And, Meicord cables are directional. Sounds changes with change of direction. The size and depth of the soundstage, the clarity of the acoustic bass, etc.

P.S.: I might also add that a few years ago I replaced the standard external power supplies with linear power supplies for several system components. A very serious improvement in sound.

[Spotted Horses]

A couple of weeks ago I replaced a couple of ethernet cables, from the computer to the switch and from the switch to the streamer. One pair of the cables for the other pair. Both pairs are relatively inexpensive. One pair is from Meicord, Germany, the other is from Supra, Sweden. Changing to Supra made a difference to the sound. I like it better now. What are the physical parameters of both pairs of cables I have no idea. In my previous audio set the Meicord sounded better than Supra. I also used one of the Meicord cables to connect the optical/ethernet box to the router, instead of the standard noname cable. Another noticeable improvement in sound. Go figure. And, Meicord cables are directional. Sounds changes with change of direction. The size and depth of the soundstage, the clarity of the acoustic bass, etc.

Ethernet is a packet delivery system. A block of binary numbers is delivered with with a CRC code which allows the receiver to determine if there were any errors. If errors were detected the block of data is retransmitted until errorless data is received. That means that absolutely errorless data is received, or no data is received. It is impossible for slightly degraded data to be received, you either get perfect data, or it drops out entirely. The most up-to-date internet standard is 70,000 times faster than the data rate for blue book CD sound. That means that one second of audio data can be delivered in about 14 microseconds. Playback is not synchronous, the player maintains a buffer of data queued to be converted and relies on the ethernet source to keep that buffer full. My player even shows me how much data has been buffered, usually as soon as I start playback almost the entire track is buffered and queued for playback.

There is no programatic mechanism which would allow an ethernet cable to sound slightly better than another ethernet cable.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I left home with several family members a few days after the invasion started. We managed to take a few suitcases of belongings, etc. with us. We managed to hire a taxi to the border with Romania and went to Germany after that.

A few months after that we returned back home. Although missile and drone attacks continue until now, we are used to it and it is not so scary anymore. My family's flat was not damaged.

Svitolina is from Odessa, my hometown. We are in a music forum, so it might be appropriate to say that it is also the city where Emil Gilels, David Oistrakh, Nathan Milstein, Sviatoslav Richter started their careers.

Glad that you are all o.k. and had a home to come back to.

And the musicians that you listed are some of my favorites!

PD

[Todd]

There is no programatic mechanism which would allow an ethernet cable to sound slightly better than another ethernet cable.

People who believe USB cables sound different will believe ethernet cables sound different.  In reality, they cannot sound different.  People who claim such cables sound different do not know what the cables do.

[Spotted Horses]

This is exactly the case. You've driven a Yugo and you try to convince the owner of an Aston Martin that all cars drive the same way because they all have four wheels.

You can also, of course, recall the laws of physics and say something about wheel traction, friction or Newton's laws. All this is solemn true, but Yugo and Aston Martin are not the same thing, whatever the holder of universal objective knowledge Todd may claim... Lets talk about self-delusion now :-)

A poor analogy. There are many technically measurable characteristics that distinguish a Yugo from an Aston Martin. Engine power, torque, center of mass location, suspension design allowing the four wheels to maintain constant force and alignment regardless of velocity, accelartion and turn radius. But of course, coefficient of friction between the tires and the road put an ultimate limit on possible performance that no amount of engineering can surpass, but the Aston Martin (I assume) gets closer to the limit.

[AnotherSpin]

Ethernet is a packet delivery system. A block of binary numbers is delivered with with a CRC code which allows the receiver to determine if there were any errors. If errors were detected the block of data is retransmitted until errorless data is received. That means that absolutely errorless data is received, or no data is received. It is impossible for slightly degraded data to be received, you either get perfect data, or it drops out entirely. The most up-to-date internet standard is 70,000 times faster than the data rate for blue book CD sound. That means that one second of audio data can be delivered in about 14 microseconds. Playback is not synchronous, the player maintains a buffer of data queued to be converted and relies on the ethernet source to keep that buffer full. My player even shows me how much data has been buffered, usually as soon as I start playback almost the entire track is buffered and queued for playback.

There is no programatic mechanism which would allow an ethernet cable to sound slightly better than another ethernet cable.

You have just enlightened me, thank you so much! I mean, I didn't understand anything, but it sounds convincing anyway. Too bad it doesn't match my experience, but still fun to read.

By the way, have you ever heard that there are different standards for ethernet cables?  Cat5, Cat6, Cat7, etc.? That they differ in parameters? That there are cables with shielded and unshielded connectors?