The Audiophile Debate

[AnotherSpin]

A poor analogy. There are many technically measurable characteristics that distinguish a Yugo from an Aston Martin. Engine power, torque, center of mass location, suspension design allowing the four wheels to maintain constant force and alignment regardless of velocity, accelartion and turn radius. But of course, coefficient of friction between the tires and the road put an ultimate limit on possible performance that no amount of engineering can surpass, but the Aston Martin (I assume) gets closer to the limit.

There are measurable characteristics that differs between cables too.

[AnotherSpin]

People who believe USB cables sound different will believe ethernet cables sound different.  In reality, they cannot sound different.  People who claim such cables sound different do not know what the cables do.

People who can't hear the differences between the sound of different cables can know everything about what cables do. There's no contradiction. That's the sad, albeit funny, thing about it.

[AnotherSpin]

Glad that you are all o.k. and had a home to come back to.

And the musicians that you listed are some of my favorites!

PD

Thank you for your kind words.

[Spotted Horses]

There are measurable characteristics that differs between cables too.

That does not change the fact that ethernet uses a packet delivery scheme with error detection and correction. It delivers bit-identical data or it delivers no data. Saying that music sounds better when used with a different cable is like saying that the character Madame Bovary is more depressed if you transfer the pdf file of the novel with a different cable.

[AnotherSpin]

That does not change the fact that ethernet uses a packet delivery scheme with error detection and correction. It delivers bit-identical data or it delivers no data. Saying that music sounds better when used with a different cable is like saying that the character Madame Bovary is more depressed if you transfer the pdf file of the novel with a different cable.

That's an interesting comparison. The Moonlight Sonata will certainly remain a Moonlight Sonata no matter what cable is used to transmit the signal during playback. But the sound quality may change during playback. Or not.

[Spotted Horses]

That's an interesting comparison. The Moonlight Sonata will certainly remain a Moonlight Sonata no matter what cable is used to transmit the signal during playback. But the sound quality may change during playback. Or not.

It simply cannot, because any functioned ethernet cable will deliver and identical stream of numbers to the DAC. If the DAC receives the same numbers, it produces the same analog signal.

[Mandryka]

@Spotted Horses

You're assuming that the listener's perception of changed sound quality supervenes on physical properties of the system. But that's not right. It's a perception, and as such can supervene on psychological properties -- the power of suggestion, the knowledge that money has been spent etc. It is perfectly consistent to say:

1. I hear a change to the the sound

and

2. There is no change to the sound.

(Supervenience is a term in logic --  A supervenes on B if there cannot be a change in A without there being a change in B.)

[Spotted Horses]

@Spotted Horses

You're assuming that the listener's perception of changed sound quality supervenes on physical properties of the system. But that's not right. It's a perception, and as such can supervene on psychological properties -- the power of suggestion, the fact that money has been spent etc. It is perfectly consistent to say:

1. I hear a change to the the sound

and

2. There is no change to the sound.

(Supervenience is a term in logic --  A supervenes on B if there cannot be a change in A without there being a change in B.)

You are absolutely correct, of course. If reversing the cable "sounds better" at least that is free.

The health of the economy depends on money flowing to people who use it to do something useful. If I give money to Shure for a pair of headphones the company becomes more profitable and allows them to make even better headphones. If I give it to Naxos, they can use it to make more records. If I give it to a company that sticks a directional label on a $5 ethernet cable and sells it for $5,000, how does that benefit the society?

[Mandryka]

Re directionality in cables, I think that in interconnects with arrows the connection to the grounded shield is only at one end. Best to put that end in the preamp. Interconnects without arrows are grounded at both ends.

[Spotted Horses]

Re directionality in cables, I think that in cables with arrows the connection to the grounded shield is only at one end. Best to put that end in the preamp. Cables without arrows are connected at both ends.

The Nordost speaker cables I have seen are side-by-side ribbon looking things, no ground shield. For a cable from pre-amp to amplifier, that is normally coax with a single internal conductor, which means the shield must be connected on both sides or there is no circuit. Without connection on both ends the amp will interpret the signal relative to its ambient earth ground, which is not a usable signal. If it is a case of two conductors inside a sheath, then  that could work, but it is not clear why there is any advantage grounding one side or the other, especially since component makers didn't design it to work that way.

[Mandryka]

If it is a case of two conductors inside a sheath, then  that could work, but it is not clear why there is any advantage grounding one side or the other, especially since component makers didn't design it to work that way.

No good physical reason for this design as far as I know. There may be evil marketing reasons.   I was once told that the Naim SNAIC is built like this.   

[Harry]

Odin Gold cables and interlinks by Nordost are ordered. A worthwhile investment, at least to me. But what do I know. Let the experts speak.......

[Spotted Horses]

No good physical reason for this design as far as I know. There may be evil marketing reasons.   I was once told that the Naim SNAIC is built like this.   

The industry standard 3 pin XLR connector has two internal conductors and a sheath connection. It is useful for things like microphone connections, where the signal may be small and vulnerable to interference. I also see such connectors on headphone amps for fanatics. Such a connection could have advantages when the system is designed to take advantage of it. Hanging the sheath off the ground pin on one side when the grounds are explicitly connected by the cable seems like it would be a detriment to performance.

[Todd]

People who can't hear the differences between the sound of different cables can know everything about what cables do. There's no contradiction. That's the sad, albeit funny, thing about it.

What?

[Todd]

A worthwhile investment, at least to me.

By definition, it is not an investment.  It is an expenditure on a Giffen good.

[AnotherSpin]

It simply cannot, because any functioned ethernet cable will deliver and identical stream of numbers to the DAC. If the DAC receives the same numbers, it produces the same analog signal.

Ok, you (and Todd) win! All components including cables sound the same. No worries!

[AnotherSpin]

Odin Gold cables and interlinks by Nordost are ordered. A worthwhile investment, at least to me. But what do I know. Let the experts speak.......

Hopefully they will fit your system well and you will love the sound.

Will you get the cables already pre-burned? Nordost dealers, I remember, provided such a service.

[AnotherSpin]

[..] the knowledge that money has been spent etc. [..]

I don't think there is a direct correlation between money spent and sound preference. My current set is much cheaper than the few sets I had before, and in some ways I like the sound at least as much.

Also, a few years ago I had two pairs of very expensive and awesome sounding earphones from Noble Audio, along with a matching DAC and custom silver cables (yes!). Now I have earphones many, many times cheaper, but the sound is excellent too.

Yeah, you'll probably say that I've talked myself into believing that much cheaper sets sound great too...)))))

[Harry]

Hopefully they will fit your system well and you will love the sound.

Will you get the cables already pre-burned? Nordost dealers, I remember, provided such a service.

Yes I specifically asked them to burn them in for I know what difference that makes. When I started a long time ago with Blue Heaven and Red dawn, over to Valhalla, and now to the best Nordost has to offer Odin Gold, burning in is necessary.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Odin Gold cables and interlinks by Nordost are ordered. A worthwhile investment, at least to me. But what do I know. Let the experts speak.......

Hope that you enjoy them Harry!

PD