The Audiophile Debate

[Bachtoven]

Odin Gold cables and interlinks by Nordost are ordered. A worthwhile investment, at least to me. But what do I know. Let the experts speak.......

If they are worthwhile to you and you like them, then who cares what the "experts" think? (I hated even typing that term.)

[Todd]

One would think that if audiophiles were secure in their belief that they hear what they claim they hear that they would do the following.  First, they would subject themselves to a hearing test by an audiologist so they could objectively verify that they can indeed physically hear all the output from those sweet, sweet tweeters used on fancy speakers and hypothetically contained in so-called "high resolution" recordings.  Second, they would subject themselves to double blind-listening tests.  Superior, well-trained, well-honed hearing would surely shine in such a setting.  Third, they would perform in-room measurements that objectively verify that their stereo setups are basically perfect, which would only make sense, because any person with superior, well-trained, well-honed hearing would necessarily end up with a supremely well-measuring system, one that lifts all veils, one that reveals all microdynamic contrasts in the context of huge macrodynamic swings, one that images perfectly, one that generates the optimal amount of air.  Surely they would do that.  Otherwise one is forced to conclude based on the evidence that audiophiles splurge on Giffen goods that create markedly distorted sound but offer bragging rights. 

[Fëanor]

Odin Gold cables and interlinks by Nordost are ordered. A worthwhile investment, at least to me. But what do I know. Let the experts speak.......

Is it fair to say the some audiophiles are of the Romantic rather than the Enlightenment Era?

[AnotherSpin]

If they are worthwhile to you and you like them, then who cares what the "experts" think? (I hated even typing that term.)

Exactly. People who like what they hear rely on their own experience. But there is a specific kind of people who need to overthrow what others like by appealing to randomly drawn measurements or formulas. You might call them "experts". The difference between the former and the latter is that the former rely on what they hear, while the latter rely on what they do not hear but supposedly know from others.

[Bachtoven]

Exactly. People who like what they hear rely on their own experience. But there is a specific kind of people who need to overthrow what others like by appealing to randomly drawn measurements or formulas. You might call them "experts". The difference between the former and the latter is that the former rely on what they hear, while the latter rely on what they do not hear but supposedly know from others.

I prefer to enjoy my music rather than testing/measuring my equipment. I never buy gear for its own sake--I buy it so my music sounds more realistic. I sometimes wonder if these objectivists ever listen to live music and know what the instruments actually sound like.

[AnotherSpin]

I prefer to enjoy my music rather than testing/measuring my equipment. I never buy gear for its own sake--I buy it so my music sounds more realistic. I sometimes wonder if these objectivists ever listen to live music and know what the instruments actually sound like.

Likewise. I love listening to music, and I don't care what the measurements of the components are.

[Valentino]

It's the music that should be musical, not the bloody stereo.

[71 dB]

It's the music that should be musical, not the bloody stereo.

My audio gear doesn't need to be musical, because Elgar was. 

[Todd]

I sometimes wonder if these objectivists ever listen to live music and know what the instruments actually sound like.

I do, which is why I know that the following is false:

I never buy gear for its own sake--I buy it so my music sounds more realistic.

Precisely contrary to what audiophiles say and write, even the most elaborate system in existence does not actually sound realistic.  The degree of artificiality varies, but all audio gear sounds artificial.   

Of course, I'm not an objectivist - whatever that means, precisely - but rather a realist and I know that subjective audiophiles who pretend that objective measurements do not dictate actual sonic performance are detached from reality.  As evidence of my non-objectivity, I enjoy dynamic loudspeakers, even with their known limitations. 

It's the music that should be musical, not the bloody stereo.

True.

[DavidW]

Funny enough on the complete other side of debating the virtues of high end audio... I went on a vacation and just packed some cheap bluetooth headphones.  I loved what I listened to.  Sometimes there is more to music than the gear used.

[Bachtoven]

I do, which is why I know that the following is false:


Precisely contrary to what audiophiles say and write, even the most elaborate system in existence does not actually sound realistic.  The degree of artificiality varies, but all audio gear sounds artificial. 

Of course, I'm not an objectivist - whatever that means, precisely - but rather a realist and I know that subjective audiophiles who pretend that objective measurements do not dictate actual sonic performance are detached from reality.  As evidence of my non-objectivity, I enjoy dynamic loudspeakers, even with their known limitations. 


True.

I'm more of a "musicphile" than an audiophile. Yes, I like nice gear but it's the means to an end, not the end itself.

I need to stay out of this thread before my head fucking explodes.

[Todd]

Yes, I like nice gear but it's the means to an end, not the end itself.

I've read and heard that from audiophiles for decades.  I'll assume in your case it is true.  Most of the time it is not.  The way one can tell is how vehemently audiophiles insist that their superior hearing allows them to detect even the tiniest discrepancies in audio performance and declare that the artificial sound reproduction they fancy is more realistic than some other gear.  Never mind that they can't physically hear it or that there is no audible difference to discern, such as with digital cables.

I went on a vacation and just packed some cheap bluetooth headphones.

I recently had to buy some cheap wired earbuds for travel.  (I nearly lost my wireless pair.)  The frequency response is clearly different from the wireless pair, rolled off both high and low, and the clarity does not match my open back full size headphones, but for certain types of music, the lower fi, midrange rich sound works splendidly. I'd love to have Beyer T1 level performance everywhere, all the time, but that just is not in the cards, so adjustments must be made, and it's easy to do.

[AnotherSpin]

I've read and heard that from audiophiles for decades.  I'll assume in your case it is true.  Most of the time it is not.  The way one can tell is how vehemently audiophiles insist that their superior hearing allows them to detect even the tiniest discrepancies in audio performance and declare that the artificial sound reproduction they fancy is more realistic than some other gear.  Never mind that they can't physically hear it or that there is no audible difference to discern, such as with digital cables.


I recently had to buy some cheap wired earbuds for travel.  (I nearly lost my wireless pair.)  The frequency response is clearly different from the wireless pair, rolled off both high and low, and the clarity does not match my open back full size headphones, but for certain types of music, the lower fi, midrange rich sound works splendidly. I'd love to have Beyer T1 level performance everywhere, all the time, but that just is not in the cards, so adjustments must be made, and it's easy to do.

My hearing is far from perfect. Maybe that's why some components, including cables, sound better to my ears than others. Of course, I am not an audiophile, it is important to me that the sound of music does not have too much noise of various origins and serious distortion.

I agree that price is not decisive. At one time I used at the same time regular wired iPhone earphones in turn with a very expensive set of Noble earphones with Chord DAC. Both variants sounded very different, but it didn't stop me from enjoying music in each scenario.

[DavidW]

Of course, I am not an audiophile,

lol what?  Then what do you call yourself?  Anyone that argues over the philosophy behind buying greatly overpriced audio gear is clearly an audiophile.  Normal people don't care.    

[Harry]

lol what?  Then what do you call yourself?  Anyone that argues over the philosophy behind buying greatly overpriced audio gear is clearly an audiophile.  Normal people don't care.  

For audiophiles there is no overpriced audio gear, the quality we seek is expensive and we are willing to pay. Take for instance the Odin Gold loudspeaker cables and ditto interlinks I ordered, are to most people over priced, just google them, but for me the value of sound is equal to the price. I am one of those who clearly hears differences.

[AnotherSpin]

lol what?  Then what do you call yourself?  Anyone that argues over the philosophy behind buying greatly overpriced audio gear is clearly an audiophile.  Normal people don't care.    

Seriously? I don't need to call myself. I am, and I know I am.

I don't care how much an item costs. It can be expensive, it can cost very little, it can cost nothing. All objects appear in my perception in the same way. They appear and then disappear.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

lol what?  Then what do you call yourself?  Anyone that argues over the philosophy behind buying greatly overpriced audio gear is clearly an audiophile.  Normal people don't care.  

As an aside, I heard one story from a sales associate who worked at a now defunct audio shop.  He told me the story of a certain customer (who we all know of in the area) who had made a ton of money at a local business that he had started.  He apparently, came into the store to buy a stereo system and asked for the most expensive pieces that they had--not the best--the most expensive.  I don't believe (and I could be wrong here) that he even auditioned the system in the store before purchasing it.

@DavidW  A friend of mine several years ago mentioned that she was looking for a CD player for her home for her and her partner to use.  I suggested a then-existent Tivoli player (which I had looked at once upon a time) which I thought would suit their needs and there was one in a local shop and it was what I thought was a reasonable $600.  I knew that they weren't big music junkies and wouldn't want to be spending a ton of money on different components.  She was like:  "That's a lot of money!".  She'll spend $200 on a pair of shoes.  My thinking was that it's getting hard to find some sort of all-in-one CD player (particularly one that is any good).  I have no idea what Bose are going for these days or a basic Cambridge Audio, but I suspect that they are more.  Tivoli also had a good reputation and I figured that it would last reasonably well for them.  Oh, well.  I tried.  And if anyone else here has any suggestions, I'll happily pass them along. 

PD

[Mandryka]

Seriously? I don't need to call myself. I am, and I know I am.

I don't care how much an item costs. It can be expensive, it can cost very little, it can cost nothing. All objects appear in my perception in the same way. They appear and then disappear.

Γνῶθι σαυτόν

[AnotherSpin]

Γνῶθι σαυτόν

right

[71 dB]

For audiophiles there is no overpriced audio gear,...

For audiophools there is no overpriced audio gear.
For audiophiles there ARE overpriced audio gears.

The quality we seek is expensive and we are willing to pay.

Quality costs money, but it is about the rule of diminishing returns. Oftentimes the price point of optimal "bang for the buck" isn't that high. In the end you are willing to pay only as much as you can afford. You don't own the most expensive speakers in the World, do you?

Take for instance the Odin Gold loudspeaker cables and ditto interlinks I ordered, are to most people over priced, just google them, but for me the value of sound is equal to the price. I am one of those who clearly hears differences.

How does this cheap cable sound to you?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/KabelDirekt-2x2-5mm²-Speakers-Surround-polarity/dp/B098NS8FD3/ref=sr_1_3?crid=25HMDBARHINME&keywords=speaker+cable&qid=1689273755&sprefix=speaker+cable%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-3

£15.99/10 m, 2x2.5 mm²

That's the kind of "default" cable I use. Works perfectly to me.