The Audiophile Debate

[AnotherSpin]

How does this cheap cable sound to you?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/KabelDirekt-2x2-5mm²-Speakers-Surround-polarity/dp/B098NS8FD3/ref=sr_1_3?crid=25HMDBARHINME&keywords=speaker+cable&qid=1689273755&sprefix=speaker+cable%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-3

£15.99/10 m, 2x2.5 mm²

That's the kind of "default" cable I use. Works perfectly to me.

No need to hear these. The picture from Amazon says volumes.

[Spotted Horses]

No need to hear these. The picture from Amazon says volumes.

What, you can tell from the picture that they are Putinists?

[AnotherSpin]

What, you can tell from the picture that they are Putinists?

I guess your words are full of sarcasm?

I think the picture shows the target audience of this kind of cables and shows how this audience listens to music. We can also assume that they are not listening to Shostakovich at all. Although, you never know.

[Atriod]

As an aside, I heard one story from a sales associate who worked at a now defunct audio shop.  He told me the story of a certain customer (who we all know of in the area) who had made a ton of money at a local business that he had started.  He apparently, came into the store to buy a stereo system and asked for the most expensive pieces that they had--not the best--the most expensive.  I don't believe (and I could be wrong here) that he even auditioned the system in the store before purchasing it.

@DavidW  A friend of mine several years ago mentioned that she was looking for a CD player for her home for her and her partner to use.  I suggested a then-existent Tivoli player (which I had looked at once upon a time) which I thought would suit their needs and there was one in a local shop and it was what I thought was a reasonable $600.  I knew that they weren't big music junkies and wouldn't want to be spending a ton of money on different components.  She was like:  "That's a lot of money!".  She'll spend $200 on a pair of shoes.  My thinking was that it's getting hard to find some sort of all-in-one CD player (particularly one that is any good).  I have no idea what Bose are going for these days or a basic Cambridge Audio, but I suspect that they are more.  Tivoli also had a good reputation and I figured that it would last reasonably well for them.  Oh, well.  I tried.  And if anyone else here has any suggestions, I'll happily pass them along. 

PD

What you described is not uncommon at all. Having audio jewelry is definitely a thing. One company I can think of is Gryphon Audio, I've never even heard of them in the US but they are very popular in the east.

[Atriod]

I sometimes wonder if these objectivists ever listen to live music and know what the instruments actually sound like.

Lots. Lots. The one thing I learned from Covid after one of our not so old partners passed away is as Andy says in Shawshank Redemption "get busy living or get busy dying." Life is too short to not fully enjoy the things I love. After hearing Pogorelich's new Chopin album he is back on my list of musicians to see live and though he has nothing in the US this year I'd seriously consider going to Europe to see him. Though all is not rosy with that album as it's severely flawed but I hear glimpses of greatness again.

I use the measurements to guide me. Like when I'm exploring a new mtb trail I wouldn't just head to it blind, I need my Garmin GPS, Trailforks, etc.

[Atriod]

I'd love to have Beyer T1 level performance everywhere, all the time, but that just is not in the cards, so adjustments must be made, and it's easy to do.

Is this really the "level of performance" to want? Sad. The comments that follow are even more brutal than Amir's tear down of them. 



edit: oh wow, the cherry on that sundae is the distortion in the most sensitive range of our hearing and $900. The replies to that thread make sense.

[DavidW]

I use the measurements to guide me.

I don't fit into either camp.  I use measurements as a starting point, but then turn to subjective impressions to narrow it down and I value both.  I usually find that the best gear works well on both sides.

[Atriod]

To put a question to @Bachtoven or @AnotherSpin would you not find measurements that show a 100 wpc amp into 4 ohms actually only putting out 65 to be pretty egregious? Or one that has a couple of db of channel imbalance? I have a really hard time imaging (or my imagination is not good enough!) that things like that or the Beyerdynamic T1 measurements not being helpful to anyone. I am an optimist so I picture there is more middle ground that exists among us, just that online communication makes people take fairly rigid stances in order to get their point across.

[Harry]

For audiophools there is no overpriced audio gear.
For audiophiles there ARE overpriced audio gears.
Quality costs money, but it is about the rule of diminishing returns. Oftentimes the price point of optimal "bang for the buck" isn't that high. In the end you are willing to pay only as much as you can afford. You don't own the most expensive speakers in the World, do you?

How does this cheap cable sound to you?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/KabelDirekt-2x2-5mm²-Speakers-Surround-polarity/dp/B098NS8FD3/ref=sr_1_3?crid=25HMDBARHINME&keywords=speaker+cable&qid=1689273755&sprefix=speaker+cable%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-3

£15.99/10 m, 2x2.5 mm²

That's the kind of "default" cable I use. Works perfectly to me.

That's your opinion Poju, and that's your right, but respect at least my view too, and stop posting all this crap about cheap is better, I get tired of hearing the same old story over and over and over again from you. By now we know what you think.

[Harry]

What, you can tell from the picture that they are Putinists?

You are stepping out of line majorly, shame on you!

[Spotted Horses]

You are stepping out of line majorly, shame on you!

Well, yes, in bad taste. My apologies.

[AnotherSpin]

Is this really the "level of performance" to want? Sad. The comments that follow are even more brutal than Amir's tear down of them. 

It seems to be pretty clear. Todd likes the sound of the Beyer T1, and wants to like the sound (or level of performance) of other components in a similar way. Measurements have nothing to do with it. Humans like the sound, not measurements.

[AnotherSpin]

Well, yes, in bad taste. My apologies.

No problem 

[Todd]

Is this really the "level of performance" to want?

Sure is.  See, exactly unlike audiophiles, I use measurements as a guide to predict how things will sound before I even listen.  I know what measurements mean.  I know that there is a perfect correlation between objective measurements and sound quality.  Audiophiles deny that - see many prior posts in this very thread - and instead delude themselves into believing that measurements do not predict sound, and that they can hear things that measurements show do not and cannot exist.  People may like or dislike whatever they choose, but to make ascientific assertions as audiophiles are prone to do is just silly.

[AnotherSpin]

[..] I use measurements as a guide to predict how things will sound before I even listen. [..]

The claim that it is possible to predict sound by measurements reminds me of the ideas of Cesare Lombroso, who claimed that a person's criminal tendencies could be determined by skeletal and cranial measurements.

[Valentino]

Well. Most of what we react to is the system's frequency response and the behavior of the room. Both can be measured.
The really funny bit is that the music we listen to has been measured already. If it wasn't measured there would be no sound.

[AnotherSpin]

Well. Most of what we react to is the system's frequency response and the behavior of the room. Both can be measured.
The really funny bit is that the music we listen to has been measured already. If it wasn't measured there would be no sound.

Does this mean that the "better" the frequency response, the stronger impression of the music is? Some forty years ago I listened to a Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto in an archive recording with Yehudi Menuhin from a primitive wired radio in a cheap hotel room. It seems to have been the strongest impression I ever had of a Mendelssohn concerto, which I never managed to repeat later. Perhaps because I didn't think to take measurements of the radio and the room and make an attempt to recreate them?

[Irons]

Does this mean that the "better" the frequency response, the stronger impression of the music is? Some forty years ago I listened to a Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto in an archive recording with Yehudi Menuhin from a primitive wired radio in a cheap hotel room. It seems to have been the strongest impression I ever had of a Mendelssohn concerto, which I never managed to repeat later. Perhaps because I didn't think to take measurements of the radio and the room and make an attempt to recreate them?

A very good point.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

What you described is not uncommon at all. Having audio jewelry is definitely a thing. One company I can think of is Gryphon Audio, I've never even heard of them in the US but they are very popular in the east.

Thanks, I'll check them out.

PD

[Todd]

The claim that it is possible to predict sound by measurements reminds me of the ideas of Cesare Lombroso, who claimed that a person's criminal tendencies could be determined by skeletal and cranial measurements.

A false analogy.  The internet is rife with these.