Bach's Bungalow

[atardecer]

Based purely on how it sounds, it comes across more like a forgery to me. Something along the lines of Albinoni's Adagio. Somebody composed something they felt was Bach-esque and passed it off as Bach.

[atardecer]

Looking into it a little further it appears the manuscript it was found in was not in Bach's hand and was allegedly written down in the mid 1730s. Assuming this date is accurate, by that time Bach was sufficiently well known to where it is possible someone attempted to copy his style and pass off the work as being composed by Bach. This kind of thing was not that uncommon in those days. I've read it happened often to Haydn with many fake Haydn works circulating in his time.

[Madiel]

The manuscript does come from someone with a plausible connection to Bach. And we aren't dealing with the kind of unscrupulous publishers who cashed in on a famous name. But we are dealing with a route that is thought to have created at least one other transcription.

There are a range of possible answers as to exactly how the piece ended up in its present form. Probably what's most important is whether someone likes listening to it. It's organ music so that is the main explanation for me only hearing it once in the last 15 years or so...

[Jo498]

A big difference is that one could make good money with fake Haydn in the 1770-90s but hardly with a by then somewhat old fashioned (more 1710s style) piece for solo organ by Bach in the 1730s.

Bach barely got Clavierübung and a few more (Chorales etc.) works printed in his lifetime, so there would have been no incentive for forgery.

If BWV 565 is not by Bach, it's not an intentional forgery but most likely arranged/copied for study from a slightly earlier composer by JSB or a close associate (son, student) or maybe composed by a son/student (like the g minor ouverture/suite (prob WFB) or the C major 2 violin sonata (Goldberg)).

When I was a kid in the 1980s it was the quintessential ("spooky") organ piece, so everyone took it as totally typical Bach (which does not say much, though, as the "typical Haydn" Ladykiller's serenade is in fact not by Haydn!)

[atardecer]

A big difference is that one could make good money with fake Haydn in the 1770-90s but hardly with a by then somewhat old fashioned (more 1710s style) piece for solo organ by Bach in the 1730s.

Bach barely got Clavierübung and a few more (Chorales etc.) works printed in his lifetime, so there would have been no incentive for forgery.

If BWV 565 is not by Bach, it's not an intentional forgery but most likely arranged/copied for study from a slightly earlier composer by JSB or a close associate (son, student) or maybe composed by a son/student (like the g minor ouverture/suite (prob WFB) or the C major 2 violin sonata (Goldberg)).

When I was a kid in the 1980s it was the quintessential ("spooky") organ piece, so everyone took it as totally typical Bach (which does not say much, though, as the "typical Haydn" Ladykiller's serenade is in fact not by Haydn!)

Possibly, but for one thing not all forgeries are for financial purposes. As in the case of the Albinoni I mentioned, it was something along the lines of a hoax. I think sometimes people do these things for other reasons. You could be right about the financial incentive not being there, but I don't see how you could be sure. Bach was well known throughout Germany and Italy in his lifetime. Giovanni Battista Martini was quoted in a letter saying "he is thoroughly known and admired not only in Germany but throughout our Italy. I will only say that I think it would be difficult to find someone in the profession who could surpass him." That quote was from a letter written 3 months before Bach's death, however a reputation like that wouldn't spring up over-night. It seems Bach was fairly well known as among the greatest (if not greatest) keyboardist/organist in that part of the world. So I don't think it is so unlikely that someone who was more obscure would have a better chance at financial compensation for an organ piece with Bach's name on it, rather than their own.

[atardecer]

It could be a situation similar to what some suspect about Beethoven's Für Elise (and similar to what Jo498 speculated about), that it is a transcription or arrangement somebody made of a different work and they changed and simplified some things.

[Spotted Horses]

The forgery theory doesn't make much sense to me. There are various organ works that are falsely attributed to Bach, but it is not my impression that people were forging Bach. I thought it was because after Bach's revival people were scouring their closets and the bottoms of their bird cages for some manuscript they could convince themselves were by Bach.

My unsubstantiated guess is that the work is a transcription of a now lost piece for violin solo maybe by Bach, or maybe by some composer that caught Bach's interest. Bach did transcript pieces by Italian composers for organ.

I don't think the comparison to the Albinoi Adagio is illuminating. According to what I read in Wikipedia, Giazotto never claimed it was a piece by Albinoni. When he published it he described it as being based on a manuscript fragment containing a continuo part by Albinoni, discovered in a library in Dresden after WWI, which he elaborated. The only dicey part is that he never produced the manuscript fragment with the continuo part.

[Mandryka]

The forgery theory doesn't make much sense to me. There are various organ works that are falsely attributed to Bach, but it is not my impression that people were forging Bach. I thought it was because after Bach's revival people were scouring their closets and the bottoms of their bird cages for some manuscript they could convince themselves were by Bach.

My unsubstantiated guess is that the work is a transcription of a now lost piece for violin solo maybe by Bach, or maybe by some composer that caught Bach's interest. Bach did transcript pieces by Italian composers for organ.

I don't think the comparison to the Albinoi Adagio is illuminating. According to what I read in Wikipedia, Giazotto never claimed it was a piece by Albinoni. When he published it he described it as being based on a manuscript fragment containing a continuo part by Albinoni, discovered in a library in Dresden after WWI, which he elaborated.

There are tons of baroque keyboard pieces with the form of BWV 565 -- alternating sections of free fantasy type music and strict counterpoint.  Bach was well aware of this idea about structuring music for organ and harpsichord.

I know nothing about baroque violin music actually. Is this form a baroque violin form?

[Spotted Horses]

I know nothing about baroque violin music actually. Is this form a baroque violin form?

I'm not referring to the form of the piece, but the alternation of two notes, one the melody and the other a sort of pedal. I recall it being used at some points during the piece.

[atardecer]

The violin theory is not bad. The issue I have with it is even in works for solo violin the counterpoint never sounds the way it does in BWV 565 (particularly the first section of BWV 565). There are works that I've heard on both violin and keyboard for example BWV 1003 and regardless of instrument, the approach to part writing seems different.

The first section of BWV 565 is what stands out to me. It doesn't seem similar to any other works of Bach, solo violin or otherwise. Even if we are looking at early Bach, there is nothing else I know of like that. Though he explores different styles in his career, his preference for a kind of harmonic richness is constant throughout all of these stylistic changes, except in that one work.

[prémont]

I know nothing about baroque violin music actually. Is this form a baroque violin form?

No, not a common baroque violin form. Only a very few strictly solo violin pieces from the baroque age have survived, and almost all the so called solo violin music from that time is for violin and continuo. Some of the surviving strictly solo violin pieces are Biber's passacaglia and pieces by Vilsmeyer and von Westhoff in suite form. One exception is the "alia fantasia" by Nicola Matteis - a piece consisting essentially of a long sequence of shifting harmonies probably meant to be arpeggiated and/or ornated. So to my knowledge a strict solo violin piece in the shape of BWV 565 is rather unusual. This confirms in my opinion that  Bach may be the composer. The hallmark of many of his works is that they are are unique like BWV 565 because they are without real precedens. If it is by Bach it must be a rather youthful work because of the rather simple harmonies and counterpoint.

I have not taken Telemann's Fantasias for solo violin into account. They were composed 1735 and are irrelevant in the context of BWV 565 and more relevant in the context of Bach's Partitas for solo violin if of course the other way round.

[Mandryka]

I'm not referring to the form of the piece, but the alternation of two notes, one the melody and the other a sort of pedal. I recall it being used at some points during the piece.

Like in the Piece D'orgue? Lentement., (which for all I know may be disputed attribution too!)

@Pohjolas Daughter -- look at the stops in the video!  At around 6:50 you can see someone doing what I used to do at school.

[prémont]

Like in the Piece D'orgue? Lentement., (which for all I know may be disputed attribution too!)

Where did you get this? It is true that there is no autograph from Bach's hand, but several of the existing manuscripts were written by some of Bach's closest students, and they list Bach as the composer. In Williams' classic work on Bach's organ music (2002) there is no suggestion that the work was not authentic.

[Mandryka]

Where did you get this? It is true that there is no autograph from Bach's hand, but several of the existing manuscripts were written by some of Bach's closest students, and they list Bach as the composer. In Williams' classic work on Bach's organ music (2002) there is no suggestion that the work was not authentic.

Nowhere -- when I said "for all I know" I just meant that I'd never investigated the matter.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Like in the Piece D'orgue? Lentement., (which for all I know may be disputed attribution too!)

@Pohjolas Daughter -- look at the stops in the video!  At around 6:50 you can see someone doing what I used to do at school.

Thank you for uploading this.  Did you follow along with the score or did the organist signal to you when to change the settings?  Just curious as to how this works (worked). 

PD

[Mandryka]

Thank you for uploading this.  Did you follow along with the score or did the organist signal to you when to change the settings?  Just curious as to how this works (worked). 

PD

We'd talk about it beforehand, and there may have been a signal of some sort,  I knew what to do more or less, and when.

[Mandryka]

Doeselaar talks about how he chose the registrations here.  There's a tremendous use of the Zimbelstern on Roland Goetz's Pachelbel CD -- unfortunately it's not online to share. (in Vom Himmel Hoch)

[prémont]

Nowhere -- when I said "for all I know" I just meant that I'd never investigated the matter.

Well, then I got you wrong.

[Mookalafalas]

I just began listening to the Bach Foundation cantata recordings:

So far, I am finding this cycle to be extremely well done and very enjoyable.  The soloists sound to my ears all very good, and the period orchestra plays well as does the choir sing.  All in all this cycle is another contender to join the top tier of cantata recordings, at least IMO. 

They have also recorded the Mass in B Minor, St. Matthew Passion and St. John Passion along with 21 29 volumes so far of the cantatas.

Their website.

  Thanks for the recommendation. I just tracked one down--several years after your original post.  I'm listening to 42.
I'm not crazy about the recording/mixing, but love the performance. A real pleasure.

[JBS]

[Cross post from the main Listening thread.]

From the Cortot box

In a way, a landmark recording in which Cortot's role is mainly conductor.

The first* recording of the complete Brandenburg Concertos, dating from 1931-1933. Cortot is the piano soloist in the Fifth Concerto.

Obviously, modern instruments, somewhat tinny sound. In this set, the first CD opens with F. Couperin's 8th "Concert dans le gout theatral" in G, arranged by Cortot. The orchestra is that of the school he founded** in 1919.

*according to the set's liner notes
**the liner notes are silent on any help from others he received in doing this