Extremely Long Piano Compositions - What's Their Point?

[Mandryka]

I'm not talking about opera or drama, where there is --- presumably --- enough action and extra-musical elements such as costumes and stage design to keep one's interest alive for a few hours with a few breaks, including for refreshment. That is a different matter altogether from a few hours of interrupted piano playing which someone is supposed to listen to.

My point really was that if it's not "uninterrupted" - if it's broken into hour long sections - it should be more manageable.

To some extent, it's an opportunity for the  producers to be creative -  a projection or a bit of dance or something to go along with the piano. Or maybe do it informally, with a bar and restaurant and people allowed to drink, snack and chat quietly as the stuff is playing, come in and out as they wish.

[pjme]

The Sorabji archive is in my opinion, well worth a visit.

More info on YT: https://youtu.be/SM_RssKeTwo?si=f_BKtSgc6nhwlZ6l

https://youtu.be/V03qgENQGp0?si=cTGXBfp4MenTFspq

" An intensely private person who loathed to participate in public gatherings of any sort, he performed some of his own piano works on rare occasions and with considerable success, most notably in the 1930s in Erik Chisholm's historic Glasgow-based Active Society for the Propagation of Contemporary Music concert series. Sorabji's final concert appearance (1936) may have coincided with a decision to withdraw his work from the concert platform by vetoing public performances without his express consent, an unusual and courageous step that led to virtual silence for almost 40 years, declaring that he considered them unsuited to conventional concert performance and that "no performance at all is vastly preferable to an obscene travesty". While he never actually imposed an unequivocal "ban" on public performances of his works, as used to be claimed, the result was that concert-goers around the world heard almost none of his music for nearly four decades. In view of the colossal difficulties involved in performing much of his music, it was not unexpected that this regrettable situation would continue almost unchallenged for so long. "

Still, I prefer to live without extremely long pieces of music. The repetitive ones (Simeon ten Holt's Canto ostinato) are the worst.

[Spotted Horses]

Can somebody please explain me what is the point of such works as Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum, which takes five hours to perform and listen to, or Symphonic Variations for Piano, ditto nine hours? I personally fail to see any at all and honestly, I regard such monstrosities as a sign of the composer's not entirely healthy mental state. I mean, what normal person can imagine that another normal person will have the physical stamina to play the piano for five or nine hours uninterruptedly and yet another normal person will have the mental stamina to listen for five or nine hours uninterruptedly? But then again maybe I'm a philistine, so please enlighten me.

He may have meant it for his personal satisfaction, it may be a piece that could be studied and played for the personal satisfaction of a pianist (as Bach's Clavier-Übung were), and it may be a piece that could be performed in parts. I'd like to see someone who could sit through a concert of Bach's complete Clavier-Übung. (I find it amazing when I read about people who put on Bach's Well Tempered Clavier and listen to the thing through.)

[Maestro267]

If this is just to have a go at Sorabji why wasn't it posted in his CD thread?

[Florestan]

I'd like to see someone who could sit through a concert of Bach's complete Clavier-Übung.

There are four of them. The most concert-friendly is the 2nd, with the Italian Concerto and the Overture in French Style. The Fourth has also been done, as it's only (sic!) the Goldberg Variations. 

people who put on Bach's Well Tempered Clavier and listen to the thing through

They may claim that but I strongly suspect their mind starts wandering at some point, and rather sooner than later.
 

[AnotherSpin]

Short pieces are more difficult to compose. The compilers of long opuses simply do not know how to present their idea clearly, and even more so, how to conclude to effect what they have started.

[springrite]

I did finish the Ogden recording of the Sorabji saga opus in one sitting. Same goes Feldman's For Philip Guston (similar length). I can't say I was totally focused. I answered a few calls, replied a few messages and cooked dinner while I was listening.
The dinner was sublime.

[Florestan]

If this is just to have a go at Sorabji why wasn't it posted in his CD thread?

It's not only Sorabji. There is this guy, Matthew Lee Knowles, whose For Clive Barker goes on for 26 hours. There is also one Jacob Mashak, whose Beatus Vir for two pianos takes 11 hours in performance. Also, Frederic Rzewski's The Road, a 10-hour long composition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_non-repetitive_piano_pieces

In my opinion this is more gimmickry than art --- and nobody could convince me that in a 100 years time these piano compositions will be just as appreciated by the audience as Beethoven's, Schubert's, Schumann's or Chopin's.

[Ian]

Five hours? That's really small change! John Cage's Organ2/ASLSP (As Slow as Possible) is due for its next note change in early February.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_as_Possible

I can wait until 2640 when I can buy the CD of the live performance. 

But even that is eclipsed by Jeremy Finer's Longplayer which is due to end on December 31st 2999.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longplayer

[Spotted Horses]

In my opinion this is more gimmickry than art --- and nobody could convince me that in a 100 years time these piano compositions will be just as appreciated by the audience as Beethoven's, Schubert's, Schumann's or Chopin's.

Are you really putting forward the proposition that there's no point in composing music not appreciated as much as Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann of Chopin? (Now that we have Taylor Swift, maybe we have to scrap Beethoven.) Given that people on this site have posted their appreciation of Sorabji's music, it boils down to the fact that there's no point composing music you don't like.

[Florestan]

Are you really putting forward the proposition that there's no point in composing music not appreciated as much as Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann of Chopin?

Absolutely not. I wonder why you, or anyone else, would infer this from what I wrote. I enjoy myself lots of piano music which is not appreciated as much as Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann of Chopin.

The proposition has been made that Sorabji's music is written for a future, more appreciative audience than those of today, and the comparison has been made with Mahler, whose symphonies are today much more popular than they were back then when they were composed, implying that one day Sorabji will be as appreciated as Mahler. I simply replaced Mahler, who did not compose for piano, with some guys who did, and expressed my disbelief that this will be the case. That is all.

[Florestan]

Five hours? That's really small change! John Cage's Organ2/ASLSP (As Slow as Possible) is due for its next note change in early February.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_as_Possible

I can wait until 2640 when I can buy the CD of the live performance. 

But even that is eclipsed by Jeremy Finer's Longplayer which is due to end on December 31st 2999.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longplayer

Circus... 

[Spotted Horses]

Absolutely not. I wonder why you, or anyone else, would infer this from what I wrote. I enjoy myself lots of piano music which is not appreciated as much as Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann of Chopin.

The proposition has been made that Sorabji's music is written for a future, more appreciative audience than those of today, and the comparison has been made with Mahler, whose symphonies are today much more popular than they were back then when they were composed, implying that one day Sorabji will be as appreciated as Mahler. I simply replaced Mahler, who did not compose for piano, with some guys who did, and expressed my disbelief that this will be the case. That is all.

You brought up Beethoven, et. al., not me. I don't know if Sorabji though his music was for the future, so much as he thought of it as for an environment when concert experience was different than in his day. Maybe if he was more prescient he would have thought his music was more suited to recordings. His music is certainly more appreciated now than in his time, since he seems to have a small but dedicated following. It is extremely unlikely that his appreciation will surpass Mahler, but I listen to lots of music by composers less appreciated by Mahler. I did listen to bits of Sorabji's giant 8.5 hour piece. It struck me as interesting, and I put in on my list of things to listen to when I have a lot of time on my hands. That day, I am confident, will never come.

[DavidW]

If that's the case, it certainly reframes the whole situation. Perhaps it's just his way of meditation, like knitting a giant comforter...

In origami a lot of what makes a model aesthetically pleasing might be in the design itself or the folding pattern which the audience is not aware of (they only see the final product).  Only the designer and the folder are truly aware.  I imagine that the very act of creating a musical composition might actually be worth it as is even if not performed.

[DaveF]

Most opera plots can be basically summed up in a few sentences...

Not at all - in fact, all opera plots can be summed up in one sentence: "Baritone tries to stop tenor from marrying soprano."

Seriously, since Taylor Swift has made an appearance in this discussion, isn't it the case that an average fan of hers would consider a 20-minute Beethoven sonata to be unlistenably long?

[Spotted Horses]

In origami a lot of what makes a model aesthetically pleasing might be in the design itself or the folding pattern which the audience is not aware of (they only see the final product).  Only the designer and the folder are truly aware.  I imagine that the very act of creating a musical composition might actually be worth it as is even if not performed.

It strikes me that there are numerous symphonic works revered today which were never performed in the composers lifetime, so I think that is so.

[Karl Henning]

I'm not even sure that we can talk about genuine art in such cases.

The composer himself created the première of Opus clavicembalisticum, so certainly in this case, it cannot be said that he did not wish to share the work with an audience. And in the case of other works, there is at the least the "audience" of other pianists who find the work worthy of preparation and performance/recording. Sorabji may well have been a megalomaniac, but it may not be fair to classify his work solely as "vanity projects."
Apart from Op Cl, the Sorabji work I "chip away at" is the Sequentia Cyclica super Dies iræ ex Missa pro defunctis, which runs almost nine hours. As has already been suggested, in principle, the piece could be presented to an audience over the space of (say) two or three days. Like a Noh theatrical performance, I don't see why an audience member need feel obliged to be glued to his seat. I approach the music a little like a sprawling novel (Tom Jones, The Manuscript Found at Saragossa, The Sot-Weed Factor, e.g.) No one is going to read these at a single sitting, and the reader may well get a little lost or at the least baffled in the course of the experience. But you're going on a journey with the author.

[Karl Henning]

not because they have something to say about human life and experience

Even a piece like this is part of human life and experience. I don't see that you get to sneer at it for not being a piece about little Bobby playing with his puppy in the spring.

[Bachtoven]

Part of the reason for the perceived excessive length of Sorabi's music is cultural: Indian music uses ragas, "a melodic framework for improvisation in Indian classical music akin to a melodic mode" (Wikipedia), which can last for hours. To simply dismiss him as indulgent or insane is frankly rather ignorant.

[Karl Henning]

and people allowed to drink, snack and chat quietly as the stuff is playing, come in and out as they wish

I understand that this was pretty much how Feldman thought of presenting his very long string quartet(s?)