Serialism

[Karl Henning]

I think the key sentence in it -- and I don't understand it really -- is this:

But in the current socio-political context, I find the notion of the subject so problematic that, at this juncture, I see no alternative to a more or less strict formalism.

I have no light to shed on that statement, I fear.

[Florestan]

Florestan What do you make of this, from the above interview with Gordon Downie

Thanks for asking.

My first reaction was, these are the ideas of someone whose bills are paid, and vacations are financed, from sources other than his music, and indeed I found this: Downie is senior lecturer in computer science in the Faculty of Computing, Engineering, and Mathematical Sciences at the University of the West of England, Bristol, where he leads programmes in AI, programming, and object orientation and where he pursues research into the algorithmic formalisation of music composition.

I will come back tomorrow with a detailed reply.

[Florestan]

But in the current socio-political context, I find the notion of the subject so problematic that, at this juncture, I see no alternative to a more or less strict formalism.

I too am at a loss about what he means by that. Other sentences, though, are more clearly formulated and it is to those that I will formulate tomorrow my objections.

[Mandryka]

Another interview which may cast some light on the matter

https://openaccess.city.ac.uk/id/eprint/6297/1/Gordon%20Downie%20and%20Ian%20Pace%20-%20A%20Dialogue.pdf

[Mandryka]

Thanks for asking.

My first reaction was, these are the ideas of someone whose bills are paid, and vacations are financed, from sources other than his music, and indeed I found this: Downie is senior lecturer in computer science in the Faculty of Computing, Engineering, and Mathematical Sciences at the University of the West of England, Bristol, where he leads programmes in AI, programming, and object orientation and where he pursues research into the algorithmic formalisation of music composition.

I will come back tomorrow with a detailed reply.

Indeed, it's proving impossible for me to find online any performances of this man's music to hear.

[Cato]

The only thing I can find by Gordon Downie is this:

There is a Canadian folk-singer with the same name.


The complexity of the score is not reflected in the result.  It could be notated much more simply.  It sounds so much like the Professormusik of the 1950's, when all kinds of college profs thought they were Webern.

[Mandryka]

The only thing I can find by Gordon Downie is this:

There is a Canadian folk-singer with the same name.


The complexity of the score is not reflected in the result.  It could be notated much more simply.  It sounds so much like the Professormusik of the 1950's, when all kinds of college profs thought they were Webern.

Thanks -- in Part 2 of the first interview I posted he says something similar about Xenakis 


Xenakis is important because of his work on formalising music composition. My interest in this work stems from that fact. But I have always found Xenakis's critique of continental serialism problematic. There's a curious sense in which the complexity of his techniques of generation isn't mirrored at the surface of what he produces. And from what I understand, that was his intention, in that he sought to make sure that underlying mathematical structures and method weren't blurred by implementational detail. For that reason I often find his music, at the immediate level of perception, rather simple. It becomes more complex if you try to listen to it with reference to the math or statistics underneath. I can only listen to Herma, for example, as an exposition or process of set manipulation and projection.

[Cato]

And the verbiage in the interview - full of professorial preciosities - reminded me of this expose' of jargon masking a lack of sensible content:

"The Sokal affair, also called the Sokal hoax,[1] was a demonstrative scholarly hoax performed by Alan Sokal, a physics professor at New York University and University College London. In 1996, Sokal submitted an article to Social Text, an academic journal of cultural studies. The submission was an experiment to test the journal's intellectual rigor, specifically to investigate whether "a leading North American journal of cultural studies—...[would] publish an article liberally salted with nonsense if (a) it sounded good and (b) it flattered the editors' ideological preconceptions."...[/b]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair

[Mandryka]

And the verbiage in the interview - full of professorial preciosities - reminded me of this expose' of jargon masking a lack of sensible content:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair

Wait till you see the second, Marxist, interview with Ian Pace!

[Florestan]

Indeed, it's proving impossible for me to find online any performances of this man's music to hear.

I'm not even sure that he writes his music with performance in mind, at least not in the usual sense of the word. Performance implies interaction and negotiation between  'cultural producer (or artist), consumer, and various administrative intermediaries' and this is something which apparently grates on Dr. Downie's nerves.

[Mandryka]

I'm not even sure that he writes his music with performance in mind, at least not in the usual sense of the word. Performance implies interaction and negotiation between  'cultural producer (or artist), consumer, and various administrative intermediaries' and this is something which apparently grates on Dr. Downie's nerves.

It certainly does. Unlike Stockhausen, he doesn't want to serve capitalism.

[Florestan]

Wait till you see the second, Marxist, interview with Ian Pace!

I've read 8 pages out of 45. Quintessential Caviar Leftism, so far.

[Florestan]

It certainly does. Unlike Stockhausen, he doesn't want to serve capitalism.

No, Dr. Downie doesn't want to serve capitalism, he wants capitalism to serve him, which it does. 

[Mandryka]

I've read 8 pages out of 45. Quintessential Caviar Leftism, so far.

Champagne Socialism.

[Karl Henning]

My first reaction was, these are the ideas of someone whose bills are paid, and vacations are financed, from sources other than his music ....

I know you didn't aim that dart at me, but I won't lie: that stung.

[foxandpeng]

Saw and decided to re-read this thread. As usual, serialism continues to be - for me - a mix of, 'Blah, blah, blah... *insert magic words*... rhubarb, rhubarb'.

I know that I like some serialist works (although I would not know they were unless told, or know why they were serialist in the first place except on the most basic level), but it is generally beyond my comprehension.

Hurray for Rautavaara 1 - 3, Humphrey Searle, Benjamin Frankel, and early Gorecki, for example.

[DavidW]

Saw and decided to re-read this thread. As usual, serialism continues to be - for me - a mix of, 'Blah, blah, blah... *insert magic words*... rhubarb, rhubarb'.

I know that I like some serialist works (although I would not know they were unless told, or know why they were serialist in the first place except on the most basic level), but it is generally beyond my comprehension.

Hurray for Rautavaara 1 - 3, Humphrey Searle, Benjamin Frankel, and early Gorecki, for example.

If you haven't check out Messiaen and Xenakis.

[foxandpeng]

If you haven't check out Messiaen and Xenakis.

Messiaen isn't new, but I haven't been hugely impressed to be honest. Time to try again, maybe?

Xenakis is unknown to me, so I guess he goes on the list too 🙂

[Florestan]

I think the key sentence in it -- and I don't understand it really -- is this:

But in the current socio-political context, I find the notion of the subject so problematic that, at this juncture, I see no alternative to a more or less strict formalism.

Actually, the two key sentences needed in order to understand Dr. Downie's views on politics and arts are found in the second interview, the one with Ian Pace. Here they are:

given that the proletariat are themselves a product of capital, and represent a low revolutionary potential, I would advocate a model along the lines proposed by Isaac Deutscher and others, in which a radical intellectual vanguard guides this process through enlightened leadership. No current organisation of the left dare advocate such a programme publicly, because of its Stalinist and Maoist overtones.

and

I would question any tendency that aimed to sustain the subject in a state of enchantment, which exploits nature as a mechanism of retreat, and as a romanticised antidote to technical-rational administration. I realise that the logical outcome of the programme that I advocate is the abolition of art as we customarily understand it..

(emphasis mine)

AFAIC, any comment is futile, other than the one implicit in my choice of color. 

[Mandryka]

It's a very familiar idea -- just substitute "art as we customarily understand it" for "religion" 

Die Religion ist der Seufzer der bedrängten Kreatur, das Gemüt einer herzlosen Welt, wie sie der Geist geistloser Zustände ist. Sie ist das Opium des Volks. Die Aufhebung der Religion als des illusorischen Glücks des Volkes ist die Forderung seines wirklichen Glücks. Die Forderung, die Illusionen über seinen Zustand aufzugeben, ist die Forderung, einen Zustand aufzugeben, der der Illusionen bedarf. Die Kritik der Religion ist also im Keim die Kritik des Jammertales, dessen Heiligenschein die Religion ist.