The Snowshoed Sibelius

[Spotted Horses]

Vanska I is modernist, and II takes it to the breaking point.


But so far that you might regret the listen!  It is an acquired taste.  I had to acquire it, but I have now.

I have been revisiting the forth symphony, which doesn't come as naturally to me as the other mature Sibelius symphonies. In Vanska/Minnesota I was totally lost. It started with the first movement, where he is very slow, and seems to want to make the music unravel. My view is that the music has a lot of unnerving transitions and the challenge is to hold it together, not make it fall apart.

In the aftermath I listened to two favorite recordings, Karajan's Berlin recording on DG, and now Barbirolli's Halle recording (both from the 1960's). In both of these the music really came together for me. I remain curios about Karajan's 1953 Philharmonia recording, and may see if I can find time for it without experience Sibelius overload.

(And just poking around, looking for the recording date of Barbirolli's Sibelius I came across a Grammophone review in which some pompous ass carries on about how dreadful Barbirolli's Sibelius is. Who reads that crap?)

[Le Buisson Ardent]

@Spotted Horses you may want to try Segerstam's 4th with the Helsinki PO on Ondine. Also, I've always liked the Colin Davis/BSO on Philips account as well. Other favorites: Berglund/Bournemouth SO, Vänskä/Lahti SO, and HvK/Berliner (DG).

[Spotted Horses]

@Spotted Horses you may want to try Segerstam's 4th with the Helsinki PO on Ondine. Also, I've always liked the Colin Davis/BSO on Philips account as well. Other favorites: Berglund/Bournemouth SO, Vänskä/Lahti SO, and HvK/Berliner (DG).

It turns out I have all of those recordings, although I have not listened to the Segerstam or Colin Davis yet. I'm thinking of listening to Maazel/Pittsburgh before I call my Sibelius 4 listening complete for now.

[Irons]

(And just poking around, looking for the recording date of Barbirolli's Sibelius I came across a Grammophone review in which some pompous ass carries on about how dreadful Barbirolli's Sibelius is. Who reads that crap?)

I think this possibly Andrew Achenbach review? Yes, not particularly complimentary but he does finish off with " bloody-minded determination which makes for oddly moving listening, warts and all".

[Madiel]

I've always loved the fourth, I have the Ashkenazy set and I think it suits him well.

[aukhawk]

I've always liked the fourth and over a period of time have compiled a long list of timings.  It turns out that Vanska/Minnessota is absolutely the slowest 1st movement on record that I know of, although overall his earlier recording with the Lahti SO is over a minute slower, much of the difference being in the crucial 3rd movement.

Here are a few selected timings including those recordings recently mentioned, plus a couple of my own favourites, plus the extremes at either end - total durations vary from 32.29 to 41.21, quite a range.  (Any applause (eg Elder) not counted.)  I hate to admit it but my own favourite is probably Bernstein.

Code Select Expand

Ashzenazy Philh 9.55 4.37 9.21 9.14 33.07
Ashkenazy Stockholm  8.56 5.04 8.50 9.36 32.26
Barbirolli 9.56 4.47 11.08 10.28 36.19
Berglund BSO 10.50 4.48 11.17 10.30 37.25
Bernstein CBS 11.10 5.19 11.15 11.32 39.16
Davis LSO lIve 11.42 4.58 12.42 9.21 38.43
Ehrling 10.56 4.20 10.22 8.36 34.14
Elder 11:44 5:09 12:47 11:41 41.21
Karajan DG 10.01 4.46 12.00 9.30 36.17
Karajan Warner  10.37  5.26  12.55  10.15 39.13
Maazel Decca 10.11 4.01 9.03 9.14 32.29
Nézet-Séguin 10.41 5.04 11.51 10.31 38.07
Rattle CBSO 10.53 4.47 11.45 10.15 37.40
Rouvali 11.07 4.49 10.55 10.02 36.53
Segerstam HPO 11.13 4.54 11.25 10.27 37.59
Segerstam DNSO 11.18 5.05 12.24 11.10 39.57
Vanska Minnesota  12.02  4.26  13.13  9.19 39.00
Vanska Lahti 11.40   4.38 14.06 9.41 40.05


[Le Buisson Ardent]

It turns out I have all of those recordings, although I have not listened to the Segerstam or Colin Davis yet. I'm thinking of listening to Maazel/Pittsburgh before I call my Sibelius 4 listening complete for now.

Do let me know what you think of the Maazel/Pittsburgh --- that is one Sibelius symphony cycle I don't own. I like Maazel's earlier cycle with the Wiener Philharmoniker on Decca quite a bit.

[Spotted Horses]

Do let me know what you think of the Maazel/Pittsburgh --- that is one Sibelius symphony cycle I don't own. I like Maazel's earlier cycle with the Wiener Philharmoniker on Decca quite a bit.

Maazel/Pittsburgh is one of my favorite cycles overall. I've had it since it was a new release. They also did a very nice recording of Respighi's Roman Trilogy.

[Le Buisson Ardent]

Maazel/Pittsburgh is one of my favorite cycles overall. I've had it since it was a new release. They also did a very nice recording of Respighi's Roman Trilogy.

I'll probably never get around to acquiring that Maazel/Pittsburgh cycle since I feel I've just go too many at this juncture. The only Sibelius recordings I've been buying are the Rouvali on Alpha and this is because I've been buying his series from the start and I definitely want to finish. One of my biggest Sibelius purchase regrets was the Mäkelä cycle. Completely overrated, IMHO.

[kyjo]

I'll probably never get around to acquiring that Maazel/Pittsburgh cycle since I feel I've just go too many at this juncture. The only Sibelius recordings I've been buying are the Rouvali on Alpha and this is because I've been buying his series from the start and I definitely want to finish. One of my biggest Sibelius purchase regrets was the Mäkelä cycle. Completely overrated, IMHO.

Well, certainly not overrated by David Hurwitz!

[Le Buisson Ardent]

Well, certainly not overrated by David Hurwitz!

Yeah, I recall his dislike of Mäkelä, but I think his opinion is just a bridge too far for me. The amount of vehemence that spews from his mouth about this conductor is a bit sickening and obsessive.

[Roasted Swan]

Maazel/Pittsburgh is one of my favorite cycles overall. I've had it since it was a new release. They also did a very nice recording of Respighi's Roman Trilogy.

I'm not sure about the Sibelius (which I have but cannot remember the technical spec and the box is not to hand....) but the Respighi is excellent and was when Sony were experimenting with a single microphone array strung 10 feet above and beind the conductor's head.  The result is excellent.

EDIT:  just read this in an Amazon review of this set "Recorded by Steve Epstein and his team using a pair of omni-directional microphones in an advanced form of "Mercury Living Presence" set-up, the Pittsburgh recordings were superb when they were released, with their natural balance, detailed sound picture and wide dynamics being universally praised.  The 24 Bit enhancement has transformed these already fine recordings into "state of the art "-compression has been lifted, " digital edge " softened, dynamics widened even more and the tiniest detail revealed."

I enjoy this set - its quite objective - not craggy like Berglund in Bournemouth (which I love).  Emotionally quite cool and direct but it does sound very good indeed.  But a set that is never used for comparisons it seems.....

[Roasted Swan]

Yeah, I recall his dislike of Mäkelä, but I think his opinion is just a bridge too far for me. The amount of vehemence that spews from his mouth about this conductor is a bit sickening and obsessive.

That level of invective does rather dilute any sense of objective criticism.  Cheap shots rarely make criticsm sound measured or balanced.

[Le Buisson Ardent]

That level of invective does rather dilute any sense of objective criticism.  Cheap shots rarely make criticism sound measured or balanced.

Absolutely. When he calls him "Ken Doll", I just roll my eyes. There's no need in insulting someone just because you don't like their conducting. Stick to reviewing the music or performance and leave the ad homs at the doorstep.

[Spotted Horses]

That level of invective does rather dilute any sense of objective criticism.  Cheap shots rarely make criticsm sound measured or balanced.

I was almost developing a tolerance for Hurwitz (I watched part of video about Bach's Brandenburg Concerti recordings) until I stumbled on a video called "three composers we can do without," or something like that. Just obnoxious.

[Jo498]

Maazel/Pittsburgh is one of my favorite cycles overall. I've had it since it was a new release.

Someone recommended the 3rd from that one as the best, partly because everyone else supposedly was too slow in the middle movement. I got that single disc but I not enough of a Sibelian (especially not with respect to the strange, almost "neoclassical" 3rd) to evaluate if that flowing middle movement is better than slower ones.

They also did a very nice recording of Respighi's Roman Trilogy.

We should not hold that against them...

[Spotted Horses]

Someone recommended the 3rd from that one as the best, partly because everyone else supposedly was too slow in the middle movement. I got that single disc but I not enough of a Sibelian (especially not with respect to the strange, almost "neoclassical" 3rd) to evaluate if that flowing middle movement is better than slower ones.

That could have been me. I was sold on the third by Maazel's recording and recall praising it here.

[DavidW]

I have been revisiting the forth symphony, which doesn't come as naturally to me as the other mature Sibelius symphonies. In Vanska/Minnesota I was totally lost. It started with the first movement, where he is very slow, and seems to want to make the music unravel. My view is that the music has a lot of unnerving transitions and the challenge is to hold it together, not make it fall apart.

In the aftermath I listened to two favorite recordings, Karajan's Berlin recording on DG, and now Barbirolli's Halle recording (both from the 1960's). In both of these the music really came together for me. I remain curios about Karajan's 1953 Philharmonia recording, and may see if I can find time for it without experience Sibelius overload.

(And just poking around, looking for the recording date of Barbirolli's Sibelius I came across a Grammophone review in which some pompous ass carries on about how dreadful Barbirolli's Sibelius is. Who reads that crap?)

I love both Karajan and Barbirolli!  I heard the same thing with fragmentation and lack of narrative flow in the Vanska Mahler 2 which I listened to a few days ago.

[Irons]

Absolutely. When he calls him "Ken Doll", I just roll my eyes. There's no need in insulting someone just because you don't like their conducting. Stick to reviewing the music or performance and leave the ad homs at the doorstep.

A term used in football (soccer) parlance 'play the ball not the man'.

[Le Buisson Ardent]

A term used in football (soccer) parlance 'play the ball not the man'.

I still think it's derogatory, but also just unnecessary. I haven't been impressed with Mäkelä, but I wouldn't resort to the amount of vehemence that Hurwitz has used.