The Snowshoed Sibelius

[(poco) Sforzando]

I myself, before I was told the Mäkelä set was garbage conducted by a Ken Doll whose only virtues were his good looks, purchased the recordings and found them excellent. Hurwitz goes on and on, for example, about how Mäkelä blows the last two chords of #5 (the last two notes are not chords, BTW, but unisons, but let's not be pedantic). But all that Mäkelä does in fact is to give longer values to the grace notes in the timpani part as written in the score.

[DavidW]

I myself, before I was told the Mäkelä set was garbage conducted by a Ken Doll whose only virtues were his good looks, purchased the recordings and found them excellent. Hurwitz goes on and on, for example, about how Mäkelä blows the last two chords of #5 (the last two notes are not chords, BTW, but unisons, but let's not be pedantic). But all that Mäkelä does in fact is to give longer values to the grace notes in the timpani part as written in the score.

I mean, he also has excoriated Vanska II as indulgent and heavily mannered despite being a spiritual successor to Vanska I (one of Hurwitz's cycles) with slightly better sonics. Hurwitz lacks nuance, and he tends to love or hate without reflection. Many don't enjoy Vanska II, but few would describe it as an unmitigated disaster.

[André]

I myself, before I was told the Mäkelä set was garbage conducted by a Ken Doll whose only virtues were his good looks, purchased the recordings and found them excellent. Hurwitz goes on and on, for example, about how Mäkelä blows the last two chords of #5 (the last two notes are not chords, BTW, but unisons, but let's not be pedantic). But all that Mäkelä does in fact is to give longer values to the grace notes in the timpani part as written in the score.

Indeed. I've heard other conductors do that with the timpani part for emphasis. The last chords of Bruckner's 8th symphony are famous for almost never being played the same way.

That's what a conductor is supposed to do: not just play the music, but interpret some of its sonic manifestations (tempo markings, accents, pauses, note values etc) as well as give shape to music paragraphs by adjusting balances between sections.

[Madiel]

Opinions about what conductors, and musicians generally, are supposed to do varies. Ravel was notorious for demanding that performers do what they were told by the score and correcting any perceived deviation. When someone complained that he treated performers like slaves, he retorted that performers ARE slaves.

[LKB]

Opinions about what conductors, and musicians generally, are supposed to do varies. Ravel was notorious for demanding that performers do what they were told by the score and correcting any perceived deviation. When someone complained that he treated performers like slaves, he retorted that performers ARE slaves.

Ravel should have known better than to expect perfection in any musical endeavor. Perhaps he felt his musicians were not sufficiently focused on the task at hand, and was trying to motivate them... but there are better ways.

[Madiel]

Ravel should have known better than to expect perfection in any musical endeavor. Perhaps he felt his musicians were not sufficiently focused on the task at hand, and was trying to motivate them... but there are better ways.

Whether he was wise or not, the point is I don't think he would have accepted as self-evident that the job of a conductor was "interpretation".

[Maestro267]

Hang on, I'll pop over to the Great Beyond one sec, let him know...

[Madiel]

We're in a thread about a dead man. While you're there, you should check how he wanted his own music handled.

[Mandryka]

Who is interesting to listen to apart from Glenn Gould for the sonatinas op 64?

Am I right to think that op 64 is peak Sibelius piano music.

[Madiel]

Am I right to think that op 64 is peak Sibelius piano music.

Not really. They're not any more substantial than lots of other pieces he wrote, and I don't think they're better music than the late opuses for example.

[Baxcalibur]

That's what a conductor is supposed to do: not just play the music, but interpret some of its sonic manifestations (tempo markings, accents, pauses, note values etc) as well as give shape to music paragraphs by adjusting balances between sections.

Sibelius said things like "only Karajan understands what I meant," "Beecham conducts my music as if he learned it from the first fiddle part" and "the details should swim in the soup."

Apparently, he also admired Ormandy's interpretations, although both Karajan and Ormandy could take some liberties. One wonders what Sibelius would've thought of the way Ormandy modified the ending of the 7th, had he lived long enough to hear this 1960 recording:

On the other hand, Vänskä's cycle with the Lahti Symphony is notable for actually trying to follow what Sibelius wrote, when it comes to tempi, pauses, note values and balances. And whatever Sibelius meant by "swim in the soup," you won't find that there.

Opinions about what conductors, and musicians generally, are supposed to do varies. Ravel was notorious for demanding that performers do what they were told by the score and correcting any perceived deviation. When someone complained that he treated performers like slaves, he retorted that performers ARE slaves.

I think it's safe to say Ravel and Sibelius had different ideas about sticking to the score.

Here is Sibelius taking liberties with his own music:

[Florestan]

I think it's safe to say Ravel and Sibelius had different ideas about sticking to the score.

Here is Sibelius taking liberties with his own music:

Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Prokofiev also took liberties with their own music. Debussy didn't even mind other people taking liberties with his music.

I think there are two types of composers:

(1) those who feel/know that the score is just an approximation of their thoughts and there's always some room for interpretive liberties, either their own or other people's.

and

(2) those who think that the score is the exact and immutable image of their thoughts and there is never any room for interpretive liberties.

The former are realist, the latter are delusional. 

[Madiel]

Sanity is not a prerequisite for creating great art. Nor, seeing we're talking about Sibelius, is sobriety.

[Florestan]

Sanity is not a prerequisite for creating great art.

The contrary might actually be true. 

Nor, seeing we're talking about Sibelius, is sobriety.

Just so. Which composer was a teetotaller? OTOMH, I can think only of Balakirev and possibly Cyril Scott --- and they are not top tier anyway. 

[Madiel]

Just so. Which composer was a teetotaller? OTOMH, I can think only of Balakirev and possibly Cyril Scott --- and they are not top tier anyway. 

There is a fairly large middle ground between being a teetotaller and being an alcoholic, and quite a few composers manage to occupy that middle ground. But Sibelius seems not to have been one of them.

[Florestan]

There is a fairly large middle ground between being a teetotaller and being an alcoholic, and quite a few composers manage to occupy that middle ground.

Yes on both counts. Actually, AFAIK most (great and less great) composers occupy that middle ground.

But Sibelius seems not to have been one of them.

Sibelius was certainly alcoholic. Bax too. For Beethoven there is only circumstantial evidence. Friedrich Wieck formally charged Schumann with being an alcoholic but it doesn't count as evidence in the least.

The only composer I can think of which most certainly drank himself to death is Mussorgsky.
 

[Florestan]

As someone who dabbles in poetry, I can attest that not a few of my (best) poems were written, or at least sketched, when I was tipsy. Otoh, I was never able to write anything when properly drunk --- except inane GMG posts. 

[André]

Sibelius said things like "only Karajan understands what I meant," "Beecham conducts my music as if he learned it from the first fiddle part" and "the details should swim in the soup."

Apparently, he also admired Ormandy's interpretations, although both Karajan and Ormandy could take some liberties. One wonders what Sibelius would've thought of the way Ormandy modified the ending of the 7th, had he lived long enough to hear this 1960 recording:

On the other hand, Vänskä's cycle with the Lahti Symphony is notable for actually trying to follow what Sibelius wrote, when it comes to tempi, pauses, note values and balances. And whatever Sibelius meant by "swim in the soup," you won't find that there.
I think it's safe to say Ravel and Sibelius had different ideas about sticking to the score.

Here is Sibelius taking liberties with his own music:

You mean the trumpet ? Ormandy doesn't observe the diminuendo from ff to mf.

[Mandryka]

Quite enjoying Hynnenen and Gothoni - anyone else special in these songs?

[Mandryka]

CasalQuartet are an outstanding ensemble - I know them through their survey of Xavier Richter quartets. This seems pretty good too.

Not to be confused with Cuarteto Casals.