Elgar's Hillside

[kyjo]

Next week we're off to Malvern for yet another few days of wandering about in Elgar Land, and as part of my 'warming up' process, so to speak, I listened today to The Spirit of England. Yes, again, for the zillionth time. Which version? Well, no surprises: these days the only version I listen to is Alexander Gibson with the RSNO and Teresa Cahill as soloist.

I have never, in all these decades, been able to understand just why this recording affects me so much. It has a great deal to do with Teresa Cahill's singing. She seems to get underneath the notes, and inside them, and when an appeal to the stratosphere is called for, the stratosphere is where she takes them, laden with sadness, pain, and hope. What a heartbreaking mixture. Surely this is exactly what Elgar must have hoped for, as an interpretation of his music?

It's old news, but if I had to give away all my CDs but one (Heaven forbid!) this is the one I'd keep. We'll be listening to it in the heart of the Malvern Hills next week.

Due to the praise it's received by multiple members here, I revisited The Spirit of England recently in this recording and, strangely enough, I was less impressed by the work than I recall being before. Much of the music is too slow and elegiac in feeling, with not enough contrasts in tempo and mood for my taste. I must admit I have little patience for such music these days - but the fault is surely mine and not Elgar's! I'm generally not wild about Elgar's vocal music, with the exception of The Music Makers which I enjoy a good deal.

[Symphonic Addict]

Most interesting! I do feel that much of Elgar's music benefits from overall swifter tempi, but also enough gravitas when required in certain passages. The VC has grown on me in recent years (especially due to James Ehnes' recording), although my favorite Elgar works remain the two completed symphonies, Enigma Variations, In the South, Introduction and Allegro, and the Piano Quintet. Oh, and those Pomp and Circumstance Marches ain't bad either - it's easy to take them for granted!

Those are my favorite works too, plus Falstaff, Cockaigne Overture, The Music Makers and Sea Pictures. A month ago or so I heard In the South in a live concert. What a stupendous piece, it's much better than I remembered. The quiet, dreamy middle section featuring a solo viola represents some of his most inspired and tender moments.

[kyjo]

Those are my favorite works too, plus Falstaff, Cockaigne Overture, The Music Makers and Sea Pictures. A month ago or so I heard In the South in a live concert. What a stupendous piece, it's much better than I remembered. The quiet, dreamy middle section featuring a solo viola represents some of his most inspired and tender moments.

Indeed, In the South has an impetuous headlong rush and heroic character in the outer sections that's rather Straussian (Richard) in character. In addition to the beautifully dreamy middle section that you mention, there's another passage which has a heavy, almost tragic "processional" feeling. The contrasts between these sections makes for an extremely effective work. And yes, the Cockaigne Overture is another winner, specifically for the noble yet somewhat boisterous great horn tune in the middle - I don't find the more lyrical sections to be as inspired. I need to spend more time with Falstaff, and it's been a while since I've heard Sea Pictures. And I really should include the String Quartet and Violin Sonata amongst my Elgarian favorites - while neither work may scale the dramatic and emotional heights of the contemporaneous Piano Quintet, they are full of captivating melancholy and mystery. The opening of the String Quartet, with its quirky, hesitant motto rhythm played in unison by the four players, is particularly memorable, as is the delicately "ghostly" slow movement of the Violin Sonata.

[Elgarian Redux]

And I really should include the String Quartet and Violin Sonata amongst my Elgarian favorites - while neither work may scale the dramatic and emotional heights of the contemporaneous Piano Quintet, they are full of captivating melancholy and mystery. The opening of the String Quartet, with its quirky, hesitant motto rhythm played in unison by the four players, is particularly memorable, as is the delicately "ghostly" slow movement of the Violin Sonata.

Taking them as a group, I put them among my very favourite Elgar pieces. Nothing 'showy' about them. Heartfelt.

[71 dB]

Every time I come to this thread I feel I should be able to write something informational as an Elgar fan, but I don't know if I can. I need to take it easy and not feel pressure.

My ranking of Elgar's chamber works:

Piano Quintet
Violin Sonata
String Quartet

[Elgarian Redux]

Every time I come to this thread I feel I should be able to write something informational as an Elgar fan, but I don't know if I can. I need to take it easy and not feel pressure.

My ranking of Elgar's chamber works:

Piano Quintet
Violin Sonata
String Quartet

What you write invariably seems fine to me, whether it's 'informational' or not.

I'm not keen on ranking works myself, but if I did, my list would be in the same order as yours, I think.

[71 dB]

What you write invariably seems fine to me, whether it's 'informational' or not.

Well, as an Elgar fan what I say about his music should not be complete BS. That would be really worrying.  However, I don't reach the level of insight you do. 

I'm not keen on ranking works myself, but if I did, my list would be in the same order as yours, I think.

Cool, but also expected. I would have been surprised if you had a clearly differing opinion.

[Elgarian Redux]

Well, as an Elgar fan what I say about his music should not be complete BS.

It isn't. Not even close.

I don't reach the level of insight you do. 

Are you sure? I've never had any reason to think that your insight was somehow inferior. My tip would be: don't be misled by a bunch of words that may not be as meaningful as they seem.

[71 dB]

It isn't. Not even close.

Are you sure? I've never had any reason to think that your insight was somehow inferior. My tip would be: don't be misled by a bunch of words that may not be as meaningful as they seem.

Thanks! Basically there are two kind of people: Those who think they know more than they actually do and those who have been humbled by struggles in life.

[Brian]

Taking them as a group, I put them among my very favourite Elgar pieces. Nothing 'showy' about them. Heartfelt.

This is interesting. I recently listened to the newish violin sonata performance on BIS from Ulf Wallin, who is a very old fashioned romantic style of player. It was extremely heartfelt and emotional...but also maybe a little bit showy! Gasp!

[Elgarian Redux]

This is interesting. I recently listened to the newish violin sonata performance on BIS from Ulf Wallin, who is a very old fashioned romantic style of player. It was extremely heartfelt and emotional...but also maybe a little bit showy! Gasp!

Gasp!, indeed. I haven't heard it, Brian. But is it the music that's showy, or the performance?

Thinking further, do I even know what I mean by 'showy'? I think I mean a presentation that emphasises the technical wizardry of the performance, so that instead of intently following the music as a listener, I'm browbeaten into recognising how difficult it is to play, yet with what apparent ease it is being delivered. So the focus shifts from the music to the skill of the practioner.

But this isn't something I think about much - it's just what popped out this minute.

[Brian]

Gasp!, indeed. I haven't heard it, Brian. But is it the music that's showy, or the performance?

Thinking further, do I even know what I mean by 'showy'? I think I mean a presentation that emphasises the technical wizardry of the performance, so that instead of intently following the music as a listener, I'm browbeaten into recognising how difficult it is to play, yet with what apparent ease it is being delivered. So the focus shifts from the music to the skill of the practioner.

But this isn't something I think about much - it's just what popped out this minute.

Hmm. That seems to be a very good definition of showy. In this sense it's not really showy music, and maybe not a showy performance? But it was definitely one that reached through the speakers and grabbed my lapels and said, "Listen! Music-making is happening! Emotions are being felt!" Maybe I was reacting to a certain level of commitment. Maybe the sonata is always like that (I don't know it well). Or maybe...maybe they were being a little bit showy, not so much in a technical sense as in a theatrical one.



Remarkably fast timings for the Elgar:
15:44
11:05
16:13
= 43:02

Some comparison points

Sammons/Wood: 14:56 / 11:10 / 17:24
Heifetz/Sargent: 15:41 / 9:58 / 16:01
Menuhin/Elgar: 17:25 / 13:00 / 19:22
Perlman/Barenboim: 17:19 / 11:46 / 18:09
Hahn/Davis: 18:01 / 12:18 / 19:32
Capucon/Rattle: 18:30 / 12:51 / 18:55

[Daverz]

Hmm. That seems to be a very good definition of showy. In this sense it's not really showy music, and maybe not a showy performance? But it was definitely one that reached through the speakers and grabbed my lapels and said, "Listen! Music-making is happening! Emotions are being felt!" Maybe I was reacting to a certain level of commitment. Maybe the sonata is always like that (I don't know it well). Or maybe...maybe they were being a little bit showy, not so much in a technical sense as in a theatrical one.



Remarkably fast timings for the Elgar:
15:44
11:05
16:13
= 43:02

Some comparison points

Sammons/Wood: 14:56 / 11:10 / 17:24
Heifetz/Sargent: 15:41 / 9:58 / 16:01
Menuhin/Elgar: 17:25 / 13:00 / 19:22
Perlman/Barenboim: 17:19 / 11:46 / 18:09
Hahn/Davis: 18:01 / 12:18 / 19:32
Capucon/Rattle: 18:30 / 12:51 / 18:55

Nearly every recording in my collection does the first movement somewhere between 17 and 18 minutes.  The outliers are the Heifetz above on the fast end and Kennedy on the slow end:

Kennedy/Handley: 19:04 / 13:26 / 21:27, 53:58 total

Campoli is a little faster than the norm:

Campoli/Boult: 16:42 / 11:11 / 17:46, 45:40 total

[Elgarian Redux]

Hmm. That seems to be a very good definition of showy. In this sense it's not really showy music, and maybe not a showy performance? But it was definitely one that reached through the speakers and grabbed my lapels and said, Listen! Music-making is happening! Emotions are being felt!" Maybe I was reacting to a certain level of commitment. Maybe the sonata is always like that (I don't know it well). Or maybe...maybe they were being a little bit showy, not so much in a technical sense as in a theatrical one.

That sounds like pretty good music, to me, Brian. I was listening to the violin sonata just the other day, and commented on it over in the Bird-watching thread, here.

I can't remember for sure which recording we were listening to (I'd transferred it from CD to a flash drive ages ago, and I think it was Marat Bisengaliev on Naxos), but (a) it made us cry; and (b) it definitely wasn't showy.

[71 dB]

As I have mentioned before, for long I didn't know/understand music theory almost at all. I never received any kind of proper music education. In school I wasn't much into music and I was already in high-school when I got into music (acid house). Retrospectively speaking I think the worst teachers I had in school were music teachers. Anyway, at various points in my life I tried to understand music theory better, but I never got anywhere. I knew what a C major chord is made of, but so what?

It all changed in summer 2018 when I watched Hack Music Theory Youtube video about the new The Prodigy song. A light switch in my head went on. CONTEXT!! That's it! Music is about creating context! The C Major chord I had known for decades has different meaning in different musical contexts! I added this mental "context layer" to my thinking and suddenly I started understanding music theory like it was just fourth grader math.

Why do I write all of this in Elgar's thread? Recently I have gotten into the Nimrod part of Enigma Variations. I'm trying to learn from Elgar. I found a simple analysis of it online with the notes (not the whole score with orchestration). I painstakingly copied it to my music theory notebook.

The interesting thing is how "jumpy" the melody is. There isn't much stepwise movement. most of the melody is made of leaps and even a lot of sevenths downward (e.g. E♭ down to F in bar 3). The melody doesn't even try to achieve "fluency", but sounds awesome anyway.

I programmed the first 10 or so bars in Garageband. It is surprising how good the first two beats of bar sounds: Chords I (E♭) to IV⁶ (A♭/C) with the melody going G-E♭-A♭. There is nothing special about the chords* or the melody**, but it all just hits the listener (at least me!) like a train!

* Starting with chord I is most normal and chord IV is the third most common in major key.
** Just chord tones, but starting with <3> (G in E♭ major is a bit interesting at least)

I think having the chord IV in first inversion helps. Maybe I am comparing Elgar too much to J.S. Bach (romanticism vs. baroque) here, but Nimrod doesn't look that great on paper despite of blowing people's minds. For example in bar 3 where the first leap down from E♭ to F happens, the melody note F goes below note G played in a lower voice under the melody note E♭. This is something I believe is considered a mistake or at least something to be avoided, but perhaps the way the voices are orchestrated makes it all work well. Bar 3 certainly doesn't sound jarring to my ears! Then again, my skills of analysis music is still underdeveloped.

I am planning of making a "drum 'n' bass" version of Nimrod. Since it is in 3/4 and a Adagio low movement, I will make every note length 4 times longer than they actually are (quater notes become whole notes etc.) and make the tempi 4 times faster which is typical to drum'n'bass music. The orchestration will be more like electronic music rather than an orchestra.

[Iota]

That's a lovely tale, @71 dB. I've always thought appreciation of music has no need of music theory to flower, but it is nonetheless an interesting and illuminating prism to look through sometimes. I admire your questing spirit though and hope the analytical explorations of Nimrod are fun.
Whatever I thought of Elgar, which wasn't a great deal at one time (though things are different now), I was always helpless in the face of Nimrod, a piece that for all its incessant exposure remains a shining ball of loveliness to me.

[Elgarian Redux]

That's a lovely tale, @71 dB. I've always thought appreciation of music has no need of music theory to flower, but it is nonetheless an interesting and illuminating prism to look through sometimes. I admire your questing spirit though and hope the analytical explorations of Nimrod are fun.
Whatever I thought of Elgar, which wasn't a great deal at one time (though things are different now), I was always helpless in the face of Nimrod, a piece that for all its incessant exposure remains a shining ball of loveliness to me.

Thanks - I was going to say something similar, but your response was so eloquent it made mine unnecessary. I admire what @71dB has been doing, and I hope he reaps the appropriate rewards from it. I don't think I'd have the perseverance, myself.