Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[hopefullytrusting]

For me, I just want a solid set with good production and good sound, so this is the set I decided upon: Stewart Goodyear

[Madiel]

I've tried the supposedly magnificent  Lucchesini and couldn't get through the first movement of op.2/1 without wrinkling my nose.

At which point I abandoned further interest in Todd holding court.

I do find it amusing, though, that in the context of saying how everybody knows it's all subjective we get the list "as determined by science". Which I know is supposed to be ironic. But everything about it is ironic, not just the title.

[prémont]

I do find it amusing, though, that in the context of saying how everybody knows it's all subjective we get the list "as determined by science". Which I know is supposed to be ironic. But everything about it is ironic, not just the title.

But then one wonders about the purpose of Todd's list. After all, it's not even entertaining, but rather confusing - particularly to newcomers.

[JBS]

But then one wonders about the purpose of Todd's list. After all, it's not even entertaining, but rather confusing - particularly to newcomers.

It does at least list all known cycles as of the time of its last update.

Perhaps someone can come up with a list of any new cycles that have appeared since then?

For my part, there were a number of pianists I would place above or below the tier Todd placed them in.
Annie Fischer in particular--she left me cold and uninterested. But of Todd's Top Ten I've only heard 3--Fischer, Pienaar, and Heidseck. The latter might make it into my own top ten, but not the others. Fischer might be in my Bottom Ten.
(Granted, there's lots of sets I haven't heard, and a few I've intentionally avoided, so there's less competition.)

[hopefullytrusting]

It does at least list all known cycles as of the time of its last update.

Perhaps someone can come up with a list of any new cycles that have appeared since then?

For my part, there were a number of pianists I would place above or below the tier Todd placed them in.
Annie Fischer in particular--she left me cold and uninterested. But of Todd's Top Ten I've only heard 3--Fischer, Pienaar, and Heidseck. The latter might make it into my own top ten, but not the others. Fischer might be in my Bottom Ten.
(Granted, there's lots of sets I haven't heard, and a few I've intentionally avoided, so there's less competition.)

For me, I just viewed it all in good fun - plus @Todd (in my opinion) is a good writer (I love reading his posts, and I learned about a lot of pianists that I wouldn't have otherwise).

I also admire the work he put in (I wish I had that kind of diligence).

I also agree with you on Fischer (she has always put me to sleep)

[Madiel]

But then one wonders about the purpose of Todd's list. After all, it's not even entertaining, but rather confusing - particularly to newcomers.

I always saw the purpose of the list as "holding court".

Before he disappeared, there was some other thread where Todd insisted the purpose was that he wrote and other people read. I can't remember the exact topic, but it was a similar style: Todd would review and rate, and nobody else could say anything beyond commenting slightly on Todd's opinions.

Which is what blogs are for, not message boards. I've pointed that out in lots of contexts over the years. When people try to behave on a message board as if a topic is "theirs" and they have primacy, it goes against the medium. Whereas Gurn linking to his Haydn blog showed a good understanding of the difference between the 2 styles.

[Brian]

My inclination is more like hopefullytrusting (but you all probably know this already). The reviews were some of the best writing to appear on here, and helped me find many recordings I loved. They certainly also led me astray due to Todd's fondness for Weird Pianism. His favorites cover a lot of stylistic range from the very very normal (Kempff) to the poetic (Lucchesini) to the anti-poetic (Annie) to the WTF (Pienaar). This is as Premont mentioned, but I think it is a feature, not a bug. They are not judged by closeness to an imagined ideal, but by the artist's success achieving a specific vision (and, yes, persuading Todd of that vision).

But, as a person who digests a lot of critical writing about various subjects and who, of course, produces a lot of it as well*, I liked the disagreements too. Stuff like this gets me thinking about the whys, why I like a performance or don't, why I don't when someone else does or vice versa, and then usually the result is not just learning something about Todd but learning about myself. (I also definitely remember an exchange with Mandryka teaching me about myself, that he very much liked a recording with a flexible pulse, and I learned that I don't, that I prefer a steady tempo. I still think about that! And then sometimes I catch myself wanting a varied tempo and I interrogate myself about it!)

I also never felt any hesitation replying/engaging. I pretty much completely hijacked his "New Music Log"  and then started my own CPO Diary. But my purpose posting notes like those is to replace my own horrible, collapsing memory, which is constantly thinking things like, "Oh yeah, the Alwyn symphonies, I liked...uh...which one did I like?" Any ensuing banter is part of the fun. 

I actually own only two of the top 10, Lucchesini and Heidsieck, but did a lot of streaming of Sohn and found it rather challenging but often thrilling. Is it really removed from streaming?

*GMG drinking game. Drink any time Brian defends the practice of reviews!

[JBS]

I actually own only two of the top 10, Lucchesini and Heidsieck, but did a lot of streaming of Sohn and found it rather challenging but often thrilling. Is it really removed from streaming?

Sohn seems unstreamable. But a performance of the Goldberg Variations and a Liszt album are available to stream/download, courtesy of a Canadian piano competition.

While checking Amazon, I discovered he has composed two soundtracks (unless there's another musician out there that shares his name).

[hopefullytrusting]

My inclination is more like hopefullytrusting (but you all probably know this already). The reviews were some of the best writing to appear on here, and helped me find many recordings I loved. They certainly also led me astray due to Todd's fondness for Weird Pianism. His favorites cover a lot of stylistic range from the very very normal (Kempff) to the poetic (Lucchesini) to the anti-poetic (Annie) to the WTF (Pienaar). This is as Premont mentioned, but I think it is a feature, not a bug. They are not judged by closeness to an imagined ideal, but by the artist's success achieving a specific vision (and, yes, persuading Todd of that vision).

But, as a person who digests a lot of critical writing about various subjects and who, of course, produces a lot of it as well*, I liked the disagreements too. Stuff like this gets me thinking about the whys, why I like a performance or don't, why I don't when someone else does or vice versa, and then usually the result is not just learning something about Todd but learning about myself. (I also definitely remember an exchange with Mandryka teaching me about myself, that he very much liked a recording with a flexible pulse, and I learned that I don't, that I prefer a steady tempo. I still think about that! And then sometimes I catch myself wanting a varied tempo and I interrogate myself about it!)

I also never felt any hesitation replying/engaging. I pretty much completely hijacked his "New Music Log"  and then started my own CPO Diary. But my purpose posting notes like those is to replace my own horrible, collapsing memory, which is constantly thinking things like, "Oh yeah, the Alwyn symphonies, I liked...uh...which one did I like?" Any ensuing banter is part of the fun. 

I actually own only two of the top 10, Lucchesini and Heidsieck, but did a lot of streaming of Sohn and found it rather challenging but often thrilling. Is it really removed from streaming?

*GMG drinking game. Drink any time Brian defends the practice of reviews!

Agree in full with all of this.

I also like Todd, as a person - or at least as a persona I interacted with on a forum, but I like people who have very strong opinions (like Don/Bulldog is another favorite or Larry/(poco), as I often don't. I can give strong opinions when prompted, but in truth - I like pretty much everything I come across (my name is literal - my primary character quality, as a person, is that I hopefully trust, and that is unidirectional, but I am always looking for the good - that is also part of my training - see the work of Peter Elbow, who is foundational in my discipline).

[AnotherSpin]

But then one wonders about the purpose of Todd's list. After all, it's not even entertaining, but rather confusing - particularly to newcomers.

Much the same could be said of life itself. It is not particularly entertaining, and more often than not, it is simply bewildering, especially to those newly arrived.

That is, until a moment of clarity dawns, when one realises that everything is, in fact, quite simple. All that is required is a shift in vantage point, a redirection of the focus of attention from the objects being perceived to the subject doing the perceiving. Suddenly, everything falls into place. The ground feels firm beneath one's feet, the dust begins to settle, and the world reveals itself as fresh, transparent, and magnificent.

I have the distinct impression that Todd has come to this recognition, both in a general sense and, more specifically, in his engagement with Beethoven's sonatas. And those who have arrived at such a place may choose to go on speaking or to fall silent; it matters not in the least. There are, after all, no shortage of gurus who have dispensed with words altogether .

[Spotted Horses]

For my part, there were a number of pianists I would place above or below the tier Todd placed them in.
Annie Fischer in particular--she left me cold and uninterested. But of Todd's Top Ten I've only heard 3--Fischer, Pienaar, and Heidseck. The latter might make it into my own top ten, but not the others. Fischer might be in my Bottom Ten.
(Granted, there's lots of sets I haven't heard, and a few I've intentionally avoided, so there's less competition.)

I recently listened to Fischer because there seemed to be a consensus that it was an outstanding cycle. Availability and price was a barrier, until I signed up for streaming. I am currently listening through it and I find it to be a "just right" cycle. Not extraordinary in any objective way, but she always seems to find just the right tempo and just the right expressive touches. I regard it highly despite the audio which seems a bit dated.

My favorites overall are two under-the-radar cycles that never seem to be mentioned (I have no idea what "tier" they are in.) Lortie on Chandos and Pommier on Warner. I also like Brautigam. But I find myself enjoying a wide spectrum of Beethoven styles (including HJ Lim).

[Jo498]

The "problem" here is that to my knowledge Todd is not even an amateur pianist. His concept of "how a piece should go" is distilled entirely from the very recordings he then ranks.
That's obviously inevitable for most of us who are not decent pianists to develop their own ideas from dabbling with the score but I think it's a major drawback.

I have also often got the impression that people who have heard dozens or 100s or recordings of "warhorses" tend to favor "extremes" because mainstream readings all tend to sound too similar and not distinctive. Not sure if Todd might be a case of this (because some of his favs to the extent I have heard them are fairly mainstream).

I think any recommendation or ranking beyond 5 or at most 10 favorites will be more confusing than helpful, even to the intermediate...


As for Schiff I bought 2 discs around 20 years ago when I was very positively taken with his lectures about all the sonatas but I found the actual recordings slightly disappointing and rather mannered, so I didn't get any more of them. He's one of the few with a flowing tempo for the 1st "moonlight" movement (Schnabel is better but very historical in sound) and a contested (but interesting) repeat of the Grave "intro" in op.13 but R. Serkin (the best known pianist to do this as well) is better (and stereo and readily available).

[71 dB]

I have not listened to many performers play Beethoven's Piano Sonatas, but out of what I have listened to, Annie Fischer is the best by far even given the not so great sound quality. Oftentimes I struggle with Beethoven's music and for very long I struggled with the Piano Sonatas also, but Annie Fischer makes the music work for me.

[Mandryka]

The "problem" here is that to my knowledge Todd is not even an amateur pianist. His concept of "how a piece should go" is distilled entirely from the very recordings he then ranks.
That's obviously inevitable for most of us who are not decent pianists to develop their own ideas from dabbling with the score but I think it's a major drawback.

I have also often got the impression that people who have heard dozens or 100s or recordings of "warhorses" tend to favor "extremes" because mainstream readings all tend to sound too similar and not distinctive. Not sure if Todd might be a case of this (because some of his favs to the extent I have heard them are fairly mainstream).

I think any recommendation or ranking beyond 5 or at most 10 favorites will be more confusing than helpful, even to the intermediate...


As for Schiff I bought 2 discs around 20 years ago when I was very positively taken with his lectures about all the sonatas but I found the actual recordings slightly disappointing and rather mannered, so I didn't get any more of them. He's one of the few with a flowing tempo for the 1st "moonlight" movement (Schnabel is better but very historical in sound) and a contested (but interesting) repeat of the Grave "intro" in op.13 but R. Serkin (the best known pianist to do this as well) is better (and stereo and readily available).

Did he ever actually say that it "should go like this", rather than "I want it to go like this"? He is well aware of the distinction, and if he did say the latter I suspect he was trolling or just slipped.

Re Todd's disappearance- I liked him and valued his opinions about composers I don't much care for like Beethoven, but I'm glad he's taking time out  because I was getting the feeling that internet life wasn't good for him. Witness here his locking threads - on another forum I saw him get wound up in a political discussion.

[Madiel]

Reviews are great.

Acting as if everyone else should agree with you... is exactly what some people on GMG criticise professional reviewers like Hurwitz for. So I'm at something of a loss to understand why it's seen as an endearing quirk when a forum member does it.

[prémont]

The "problem" here is that to my knowledge Todd is not even an amateur pianist. His concept of "how a piece should go" is distilled entirely from the very recordings he then ranks.
That's obviously inevitable for most of us who are not decent pianists to develop their own ideas from dabbling with the score but I think it's a major drawback.

This is most often the situation. What about symphonic music. Very few of us can claim to practice more than air-conducting. Are we unable to judge a performance of a Brahms symphony e.g.

I have also often got the impression that people who have heard dozens or 100s or recordings of "warhorses" tend to favor "extremes" because mainstream readings all tend to sound too similar and not distinctive. Not sure if Todd might be a case of this (because some of his favs to the extent I have heard them are fairly mainstream).

In my experience, the more recordings I listen to, the harder it is to rank them, as nearly all of them have much to recommend. I've heard over fifty complete sets of LvB piano sonatas (with about forty more still waiting to be investigated). So, I approach it the other way around, focusing on disrecommending the few weakest ones instead.

I tend to prefer the middle of the road interpretations to very excentric readings. 

[Jo498]

I think I understand why people don't much care for Schiff (or in a more obvious case, Gould) but for me objectively and obviously different features like the ones I mentioned above about op.27/2 and op.13 usually make something more interesting to me, unless the drawbacks are considerable, that's why I am not unhappy to have these 2 discs from Schiff even if I didn't get any more because I didn't like them enough overall although I think I like them more than Todd and others here did, I probably commented in this or a similar thread years ago).

While Todd's descriptions/reviews are not bad (and more technical descriptions need not be more helpful), I don't think I found enough objectivity (i.e. a good idea how this might sound) there for them to helpful to me.

[Mandryka]

The "problem" here is that to my knowledge Todd is not even an amateur pianist. His concept of "how a piece should go" is distilled entirely from the very recordings he then ranks.
That's obviously inevitable for most of us who are not decent pianists to develop their own ideas from dabbling with the score but I think it's a major drawback.

As if the judgement of someone who has been well formed and who is thoughtful and mature by nature is more authoritative.

[San Antone]

My sense is that Todd is someone who found Beethoven's piano sonatas very interesting and music worth spend time with.  My guess is that he is not a musician, nor a musicologist, and may not even have much if any theoretical knowledge of music.  But I get from his participation on this forum that he is intelligent, widely read, and with a sense of humor which is subtle. Hence, his comments sometimes confuse others or are misunderstood.

I don't know what Todd does for work, but judging from his comments about his equipment and the scope of his purchase habits leads me to think he made good money.  Not important, but success often allows someone to take on a somewhat arrogant attitude, or an overt trust in their own experience and "wisdom" and not timid in expressing them.

I say all this because, this thread I found very entertaining 1) because of the quality of Todd's writing, 2) because of the comprehensive nature of his survey, and 3) I often agree with his taste and have benefited from the time he spent assembling these reviews. For all this I am grateful for the thread, but don't place much importance on it beyond what I just wrote.

I find it strange the amount of space devoted to complaining that Todd's sarcastic claim of the "most scientific ranking in the history of man"... Did I mention, he was being sarcastic?  This is a perfect example of his sense of humor being misunderstood.

If you don't agree with Todd - fine.  Create your own thread with your own ranking of hundreds of recordings. But haven't y'all spent enough time carping about Todd's thread?

[Florestan]

I don't know what Todd does for work, but judging from his comments about his equipment and the scope of his purchase habits leads me to think he made good money.  Not important, but success often allows someone to take on a somewhat arrogant attitude, or an overt trust in their own experience and "wisdom" and not timid in expressing them.

In Todd's case "somewhat arrogant" is an understatement. He had nothing but haughty disdain for whoever dared to contradict him, whether about music or politics, and expressed it in no uncertain terms.

As for his reviews, I beg to differ from the majoritarian opinion. They are rather verbose and many of them use pleonastic or contradictory terms and statements.