Recommendations for Bruckner's 8th symphony

[vandermolen]

Horenstein either in the Vox Box or the BBC Legends (I was at that concert at the Proms in 1971 as a tiny school boy).

[alkan]

Thanks to everyone fo their suggestions.

I'm down to a shortlist of 3 ...... in order
1.  Guilini / VPO
2.  Karajan / VPO
3.  Jochum / BPO

It will be a difficult choice, but on the other hand it sounds like I can't go seriously wrong !

[head-case]

Thanks to everyone fo their suggestions.

I'm down to a shortlist of 3 ...... in order
1.  Guilini / VPO
2.  Karajan / VPO
3.  Jochum / BPO

It will be a difficult choice, but on the other hand it sounds like I can't go seriously wrong !

You can get essentially the same Karajan performance on DVD for ten bucks.

http://www.tower.com/details/details.cfm?wapi=107044522

[Haffner]

That performance of the 8th, though, is very different than his later one with the same orchestra. Where on the CD recording (from the late 80's) it's overwhelmingly profound, on the DVD performance (from 1979, IIRC), it's searingly intense.

I trust you'll enjoy it. And as I said, I'm always glad to recommend good Karajan recordings, obsessively as I seek them out myself.


Oh, and I entirely forgot to mention another very, very great Bruckner 8th I've heard (and have): Furtwängler's, with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (part of a DG set of Furtwängler performances).

If nothing else, it's the closest to the (DG) Karajan DVD's aesthetic, among all the other Bruckner 8th's I've heard. But of course, far from modern sound here; and I wish I could find the Music & Arts recording with the BPO to compare it with...

Renfield, I'll be seeing that dvd by the end of next week, and you've really helped me feel grateful for the $25.00 I spent on it. I'm becoming more and enamored of Bruckner's works; his 7th still blows me away.

[Haffner]

You can get essentially the same Karajan performance on DVD for ten bucks.

http://www.tower.com/details/details.cfm?wapi=107044522

Wow, I am getting both the 8th and 9th, but unfortunately for $25.oo.

This is the "new" Karajan collection, if that makes any difference.

[Renfield]

Wow, I am getting both the 8th and 9th, but unfortunately for $25.oo.

This is the "new" Karajan collection, if that makes any difference.

The Sony DVD is of the Karajan/VPO 8th from the late 80's - the one I was raving about above.

And a very good 9th as well, if M forever's word is to be taken for it; I'm listening to them both soon, so I might get back to you on how they look and sound. Otherwise, yes, the 8th and 9th on the DG release are also well worth the money.

[DarkAngel]

My very favorite Bruckner 8th is the 1974 live Bohm/Koln contained in this 2CD set:



As a substantial bonus you get very good Schubert 9th with Staatskapelle Dresden



Another great version and also from this greats series is the Schuricht/VPO 8th:

[M forever]

The Sony DVD is of the Karajan/VPO 8th from the late 80's - the one I was raving about above.

And a very good 9th as well, if M forever's word is to be taken for it; I'm listening to them both soon, so I might get back to you on how they look and sound. Otherwise, yes, the 8th and 9th on the DG release are also well worth the money.

Well, I have never heard the recording or watched the video of the 9th - I just went to the concert 22 1/2 years ago...it was a pretty overwhelming exerience, but I was only 17, so don't take my word for it  Actually the first time I ever heard the 9th live, yet it was one of the concert experiences that I remember in great detail, so while I certainly didn't "understand" the music yet (nor do I now, but I have grasped it much better and probably "understand" a few more aspects of/about it), I listened with great attention. The music making also made so much "sense" that it was easier to follow or actually be "led" into the music. And - man!!! - was it loud at the climaxes  But not just loud, but really massive and deeply sonorous as well. The BP has a pretty massive and deep sound anyway, back then somewhat more than today, but, as you will see in the video, Karajan played it with 5 each of the woodwinds, trumpets, and trombones instead of the just 3 written (which means they doubled in the louder passages, obviously not during solo passages), plus his way of handling and balancing the sound of the orchestra got even more sound out of it. Unfortunately, that was the only time I heard him conduct Bruckner live  But better once than never, right    I have no idea why DG didn't produce a recording of it. They recorded pretty much everything he did in Berlin then (basically all the DG recordings and Telemondial videos released by Sony made in the 80s were made in parallel with live performances of the same pieces, but the audience you see in the background of most of these videos were extras, they were filmed under studio conditions). The 7th and 8th were scheduled to be recorded in Berlin, too, but then they had one of their falling-outs again and the WP always stood by to pick up whatever recording work Karajan wanted them to do. I think that's actually good because I like many of Karajan's late recordings with the WP better than the ones with the BP, as good as a lot of the stuff was that he did in Berlin, there was more spontaneity, less carefully-planned-and-executed-ness in the playing of the WP under him in those days than with the BP, and the sound DG achieved in the Musikverein was definitely better than that in the Philharmonie.
4 years later, it was Bruckner 9 again, which was played at Karajan's memorial concert, conducted by Giulini. Because of the occasion, there was no applause at the end, just eerie silence as the audience got up and left...

[Haffner]

Well, I have never heard the recording or watched the video of the 9th - I just went to the concert 22 1/2 years ago...it was a pretty overwhelming exerience, but I was only 17, so don't take my word for it  Actually the first time I ever heard the 9th live, yet it was one of the concert experiences that I remember in great detail, so while I certainly didn't "understand" the music yet (nor do I now, but I have grasped it much better and probably "understand" a few more aspects of/about it), I listened with great attention. The music making also made so much "sense" that it was easier to follow or actually be "led" into the music. And - man!!! - was it loud at the climaxes  But not just loud, but really massive and deeply sonorous as well. The BP has a pretty massive and deep sound anyway, back then somewhat more than today, but, as you will see in the video, Karajan played it with 5 each of the woodwinds, trumpets, and trombones instead of the just 3 written (which means they doubled in the louder passages, obviously not during solo passages), plus his way of handling and balancing the sound of the orchestra got even more sound out of it. Unfortunately, that was the only time I heard him conduct Bruckner live  But better once than never, right    I have no idea why DG didn't produce a recording of it. They recorded pretty much everything he did in Berlin then (basically all the DG recordings and Telemondial videos released by Sony made in the 80s were made in parallel with live performances of the same pieces, but the audience you see in the background of most of these videos were extras, they were filmed under studio conditions). The 7th and 8th were scheduled to be recorded in Berlin, too, but then they had one of their falling-outs again and the WP always stood by to pick up whatever recording work Karajan wanted them to do. I think that's actually good because I like many of Karajan's late recordings with the WP better than the ones with the BP, as good as a lot of the stuff was that he did in Berlin, there was more spontaneity, less carefully-planned-and-executed-ness in the playing of the WP under him in those days than with the BP, and the sound DG achieved in the Musikverein was definitely better than that in the Philharmonie.
4 years later, it was Bruckner 9 again, which was played at Karajan's memorial concert, conducted by Giulini. Because of the occasion, there was no applause at the end, just eerie silence as the audience got up and left...

This was an excellent, informative post, thank you.

[Renfield]

This was an excellent, informative post, thank you.

Ditto. Thank you, M. Now if only I would allocate some time to watch the DVD itself, too...

[M forever]

As a substantial bonus you get Schubert 9th with Staatskapelle Dresden that I prefer to the Bohm/DG Originals version being sold.

Why? I have both versions, too, but I have never compared them side-by-side.

[MISHUGINA]

here are my favorites:

- Horenstein/LSO/BBC Legends: gritty, teutonic recording (mould ala Klemperer)
- Giulini/VPO/DG: one word to describe: sublime
- Giulini/Philharmonia/BBC Legends: Philharmonia's playing isn't as eloquently beautiful as VPO, especially the Adagio. The intonation of the horns can get rather annoying but it made up for spontaniety and power that the VPO studio recording lacked, take example the opening bars of the 4th movement.
- Maazel/BPO/EMI: Very underrated recording, but it is also the BEST Bruckner 8th to be purchased on limited budget, if not mistaken you can get it at 1/4 price of a Karajan/VPO disc. Maazel's interpretation isn't as authorative as Giulini, Furtwangler or Karajan but you get one of the very finest Bruckner playing on record. The strings are gorgeous plus the brass is BADASS.

[M forever]

- Giulini/Philharmonia/BBC Legends: Philharmonia's playing isn't as eloquently beautiful as VPO, especially the Adagio. The intonation of the horns can get rather annoying but it made up for spontaniety and power that the VPO studio recording lacked, take example the opening bars of the 4th movement.

Giulini's WP studio recording lacks neither "spontaneity" nor "power". As carefully prepared as it obviously is, the music making is just as obviously happening in the moment, it is not just a technically competent and refined execution of a well rehearsed concept (for this, see Haitink's recording with the same orchestra). That is what makes it so outstanding: that the music is constantly and flexibly shaped as it happens. Nor does it lack power at all. In fact, it is one of the most impressive recordings of this symphony also from that point of view. But you can't judge that because you lack the necessary live listening experience. You have to have heard these and other orchestras live many times in order to be able to tell what is the recording, and what is the recorded music making. This recording is definitely not as "in your face" as many others, nor does it zoom in on the brass to make it sound "more exciting". But these are good things. Power is not a question of loudness anyway, or shrillness, but of sonic substance and depth.

- Maazel/BPO/EMI: Very underrated recording, but it is also the BEST Bruckner 8th to be purchased on limited budget, if not mistaken you can get it at 1/4 price of a Karajan/VPO disc. Maazel's interpretation isn't as authorative as Giulini, Furtwangler or Karajan but you get one of the very finest Bruckner playing on record. The strings are gorgeous plus the brass is BADASS.

This is actually a very good recording which I only recently "rediscovered" or actually really only discovered - I had never heard it until a year or so ago, but I was in the concert just before they recorded it ("in studio" though, not in concert). Back then, I didn't quite "get" Maazel's concept, I have to admit. His reading appeared too "cold" and "distanced" to me, but it really isn't, it is involved in other ways. Plus EMI actually managed to capture the sound of the BP in the Philharmonie as it was in those days very well. Much better than DG on many contemporary recordings. When I listened to the disc, I had some serious "flashbacks" - this is what it really sounded like, in miniature format, of course.


One other recording which is outstanding in every way but which many don't know because it is hard to get is Sinopoli's with the SD. This is musically, orchestrally, and, fortunately, also sonically a spectacular reading. DG had by that time finally figured out how to find the right balance between presence and athmosphere in the Lukaskirche in Dresden which can sound very good on recordings, but it is also a tricky venue - it can get shrill on recordings easily. In their earlier recordings of Bruckner symphonies with Sinopoli in that location (3,4), DG really chose a too distant perspective to avoid the sound to become to harsh. But there is really some lack of immediacy and detail in some places. But this recording has a nearly ideal balance between athmosphere and presence. Plus it captures the SD in top form and Sinopoli's at the same time deeply involved but also analytical approach yields some fascinating insights into the music's inner life and structures.

[DarkAngel]

here are my favorites:

- Horenstein/LSO/BBC Legends: gritty, teutonic recording (mould ala Klemperer)
- Giulini/VPO/DG: one word to describe: sublime
- Giulini/Philharmonia/BBC Legends: Philharmonia's playing isn't as eloquently beautiful as VPO, especially the Adagio. The intonation of the horns can get rather annoying but it made up for spontaniety and power that the VPO studio recording lacked, take example the opening bars of the 4th movement.
- Maazel/BPO/EMI: Very underrated recording, but it is also the BEST Bruckner 8th to be purchased on limited budget, if not mistaken you can get it at 1/4 price of a Karajan/VPO disc. Maazel's interpretation isn't as authorative as Giulini, Furtwangler or Karajan but you get one of the very finest Bruckner playing on record. The strings are gorgeous plus the brass is BADASS.

The big added attaction for Horenstein/BBC Legends is an excellent 9th included with 8th for an outstanding 2CD set, I really love this.

I agree that Maazel/EMI is probably best budget priced 8th available, real surprise for me and sound is very good also!

The Giulini/VPO/DG 8th is one I can admire but not really love, Giulini/VPO/DG 9th on the other hand is an amazing performance that I find unsurpassed.

[DarkAngel]

Why? I have both versions, too, but I have never compared them side-by-side.

My memory is slightly failing me, as the two Cds are actually by different conductors.
The Bohm Shubert 9th included with Bruckner 8th is a live 1979 recording with Staatskapelle Dresden

The DG Originals Schubert 9th recently releseased is actually Jochum/BRSO from 1957 in stereo, note that in this picture
looks similar to Bohm on podium and I was recalling the picture mentally   



I find the Jochum very average and understated with little sparkle or animation sadly a disappointment, the Bohm is much better with plenty of swagger and drama. The point I was making is that the 2CD Bohm set pictured above has a great Bruckner 8th and a very good Schubert 9th 

[M forever]

Aha! The reason I had asked is that there is also a live Schubert 9 with Böhm from Dresden on DG, and I think that EMI edition contains the exact same recording (actually, IIRC, it also says something like "licensed from DG" on the back, but I don't have access to the disc right now). I have never directly compared them though, so I was curious what you meant. I don't know the Jochum recording, but it would be interesting to listen to. If it is from 1957 and in stereo, it must be one of their first stereo recordings because they made the switch from mono in that year, or early in 1958.

BTW, if you like Böhm's recording with the KRSO, there is also a live Bruckner 8 with Jochum and the Bamberger Symphoniker which I think would appeal to you because it has many of the same qualities as that Böhm recording, it is very sponataneous and rather "dramatic", with some pretty massive and blazing brass playing. I don't think that's currently available anywhere though. There may be a Japanese DVD because that was recorded on tour in Japan, and I think there is also a film. Another very interesting Bruckner 8 which is more on the extrovert, dramatic side is the one with Mravinsky and the LeningradP from the 60s which is in mono, and not really very good mono either, but the performance is so powerful and characterful that that doesn't really matter.

[Renfield]

Another very interesting Bruckner 8 which is more on the extrovert, dramatic side is the one with Mravinsky and the LeningradP from the 60s which is in mono, and not really very good mono either, but the performance is so powerful and characterful that that doesn't really matter.

Yes it is! Interesting, powerful and characterful I mean. And there's also an excellent recording of Bruckner's 9th from them around.

[PSmith08]

For whatever reason, I really like the 1949 recording of Furtwängler and the BP in this work. I have the Testament release, but there are several labels carrying the same performance. I would be hard-pressed to say precisely why I like it so much, other than the fact that it seems well-judged to the point where I'd be equally hard-pressed to find too much fault.

BTW, if you like Böhm's recording with the KRSO, there is also a live Bruckner 8 with Jochum and the Bamberger Symphoniker which I think would appeal to you because it has many of the same qualities as that Böhm recording, it is very sponataneous and rather "dramatic", with some pretty massive and blazing brass playing. I don't think that's currently available anywhere though.

The one from 1982? If so, then that is pretty darned good too. You're spot-on about the brass: the players must have known that they were doing something special that night.

There's also 1955 recording with Van Beinum and the Concertgebouw on Tahra. I can't decide whether I really like it all that much. He takes the finale fast - not that we always need Celibidache-esque breadth here, but there's a line between "spirited" and "too fast." Depending on what I had for breakfast and how warm it is outside, I sometimes think Van Beinum took it too fast. The selling point of that Tahra set, it should be noted, is the Mahler 6th.

[DarkAngel]

BTW, if you like Böhm's recording with the KRSO, there is also a live Bruckner 8 with Jochum and the Bamberger Symphoniker which I think would appeal to you because it has many of the same qualities as that Böhm recording, it is very sponataneous and rather "dramatic", with some pretty massive and blazing brass playing. I don't think that's currently available anywhere though. There may be a Japanese DVD because that was recorded on tour in Japan, and I think there is also a film. Another very interesting Bruckner 8 which is more on the extrovert, dramatic side is the one with Mravinsky and the LeningradP from the 60s which is in mono, and not really very good mono either, but the performance is so powerful and characterful that that doesn't really matter.

Checking my Bohm Bruckner 8th collection I have:

-KRSO/Great Conductors 20th Century (1974 live)
-VPO/DG Galleria (1977)
-Tonhalle Zurich/Palexa (1978 live)

As note above the KRSO version is my reference, the 1978 Tonhalle is very similar stylistically to KRSO but not quite as good overall.
The VPO version is a break in performance style compared to other two, I find it similar to Karajan/VPO 1988 version although I would
give the edge to Karajan's performance. I try to collect any Bohm Bruckner performance I can find, I find him a consistently great
conductor of Bruckner.

[Sergeant Rock]

Checking my Bohm Bruckner 8th collection I have:

-KRSO/Great Conductors 20th Century (1974 live)
-VPO/DG Galleria (1977)
-Tonhalle Zurich/Palexa (1978 live)

What label is the KRSO 8th on? I can't locate it online. And do you have an opinion about this Böhm 8th?

Sarge