Who are the mediocrities of conducting?

[Bonehelm]

I am almost afraid to give my impression, (of Solti's conducting, meeting with the wrath of Tasos,) I had and still have with Solti's Elgar, but I think this Decca twofar are the best interpretations I ever heard from Elgar, and some reference should be made to his excellent recordings of the Brahms symphonies also on Decca, which belong firmly to my favourites.That said, I think his Mahler loud and vulgar, and his Bruckner did nothing for me.
He was a great maestro nevertheless.

FINALLY A MAN WHO SPEAKS THE TRUTH!

[Bonehelm]

Hmmm...Maybe they were paying no attention to the man on the podium?

I've heard a lot of Solti; my first Mahler set was the 1970s Solti.  I thought he was a sine qua non--until I started actually studying Mahler's scores. The trouble I have now with Solti is not the intensity he generates--there's no question of that--but the way he extreme-izes every nuance.  He's one conductor who actually DOES overexaggerate to the distortion point; and that's hard to do with Mahler!  (Although if you study Mahler's directions, he insists that many of his nuances should be "unnoticeable.")  On the other hand, I was extremely surprised by his 1975 Eroica with Chicago; broadly paced, especially in the Funeral March, and exquisitely played.  I might call Solti several things--but "mediocre" is not one of them.

ANOTHER TRUTH-SPEAKER.

[Renfield]

ANOTHER TRUTH-SPEAKER.

Actually, mediocre tends to mean "neither good nor bad". Almost everyone speaking above generally described him as either of the two: so if Jochanaan was telling the "truth" in that quote, so were almost all of us.


Edit: A "famous" conductor I do seem to find mediocre, under the above definition, is Esa-Pekka Salonen.

[Bonehelm]

Nope, almost everyone excpet Jochanaan and Harry were bashing Solti's boring conducting.

"He actually let some nuance creep in! Good for him! More of this and he might have achieved true artistic success."

True artistic success? The principal condcutor post of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, the 1992 Danish Sonning Award, and 31 Grammy Awards for his work on the podium, and you don't recognize that as TRUE ARTISTIC SUCCESS? Give me a goddamn break, there's a fine line between disliking an artist's interpretations/style and DENYING his or her acheivements and success. If you think Solti's boring, dry, lacking naunce or whatever, good for you, there are more recordings out there worth hearing. But if you talk shit like he hasn't gained "true artistic success" when the man won more Grammy's (including the Lifetime Achievement award) than anyone in the history of that award AND gained the chief conductor post of one of the world's greatest orchestras AND has a huge cult-following after his legacy of recordings, then maybe you should check your intelliegence quotient with your family psychiatrist. It could turn out lower than you think.

[Renfield]

Nope, almost everyone excpet Jochanaan and Harry were bashing Solti's boring conducting.

"He actually let some nuance creep in! Good for him! More of this and he might have achieved true artistic success."

True artistic success? The principal condcutor post of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, the 1992 Danish Sonning Award, and 31 Grammy Awards for his work on the podium, and you don't recognize that as TRUE ARTISTIC SUCCESS? Give me a goddamn break, there's a fine line between disliking an artist's interpretations/style and DENYING his or her acheivements and success. If you think Solti's boring, dry, lacking naunce or whatever, good for you, there are more recordings out there worth hearing. But if you talk shit like he hasn't gained "true artistic success" when the man won more Grammy's (including the Lifetime Achievement award) than anyone in the history of that award AND gained the chief conductor post of one of the world's greatest orchestras AND has a huge cult-following after his legacy of recordings, then maybe you should check your intelliegence quotient with your family psychiatrist. It could turn out lower than you think.

I am secure enough about my horrible IQ not to need checking anytime soon, therefore in my idiocy may I note that Grammys are perhaps not the best indicator of artistic excellence in this type of music? "Ohnoes", Klemperer never got a Grammy, he must suck.

And please, don't draw conclusions over views you've not interpreted properly; do read posts, first. I didn't say we found Solti good (by majority), I said we didn't view him as mediocre.

Personally, I like the guy, so to put it. I might have a good time listening to one of his recordings every now and then. But I can't really call him great: just individual, eccentric. He's not a mediocre conductor in my view, though: just "his own man".

Although as an interpretative musician, I find him below-par. Whereas for instance Stokowski, famous eccentric of the conducting profession as he was, also displayed the most consummate musicianship when he so desired (to make it obvious).


Edit: And what do you know? Klemperer did win a Grammy! Hah. Still, my point remains.

[Haffner]

I like Solti's Mahler, quite a bit in fact, and I am basically wild about his Wagner. That's just me.

[Wanderer]

... maybe you should check your intelliegence quotient with your family psychiatrist. It could turn out lower than you think.

I don't think Solti would appreciate this kind of "devotion" from his fans.

[Bonehelm]

I don't think Solti would appreciate this kind of "devotion" from his fans.

I'm not a Solti fan, just a truth-speaker, unlike most posters in this thread.

[Bonehelm]

I am secure enough about my horrible IQ not to need checking anytime soon, therefore in my idiocy may I note that Grammys are perhaps not the best indicator of artistic excellence in this type of music? "Ohnoes", Klemperer never got a Grammy, he must suck.

And please, don't draw conclusions over views you've not interpreted properly; do read posts, first. I didn't say we found Solti good (by majority), I said we didn't view him as mediocre.

Personally, I like the guy, so to put it. I might have a good time listening to one of his recordings every now and then. But I can't really call him great: just individual, eccentric. He's not a mediocre conductor in my view, though: just "his own man".

Although as an interpretative musician, I find him below-par. Whereas for instance Stokowski, famous eccentric of the conducting profession as he was, also displayed the most consummate musicianship when he so desired (to make it obvious).


Edit: And what do you know? Klemperer did win a Grammy! Hah. Still, my point remains.

"Grammys are perhaps not the best indicator of artistic excellence in this type of music? "Ohnoes", Klemperer never got a Grammy, he must suck."
Then what is? Renfield mama's goodboy award?

My post wasn't even targetted at youl. I quoted downyn and made points against his completely BS argument. You should stay away from my obviously "insulting" post, or you maybe you need to check your EQ instead of IQ.

[Bonehelm]

I like Solti's Mahler, quite a bit in fact, and I am basically wild about his Wagner. That's just me.

Another truth-speaker, yay!

[Renfield]

"Grammys are perhaps not the best indicator of artistic excellence in this type of music? "Ohnoes", Klemperer never got a Grammy, he must suck."
Then what is? Renfield mama's goodboy award?

My post wasn't even targetted at youl. I quoted downyn and made points against his completely BS argument. You should stay away from my obviously "insulting" post, or you maybe you need to check your EQ instead of IQ.

My EQ is also very poor, thank you.

Renfield mama's goodboy award would be an interesting novelty, do suggest it someplace. But if you want a serious answer, judging classical performances by recording-awards, even setting aside whether the Grammies might not have a commercial basis to them (like you won't necessarily judge good movies by Oscars), is a lost cause.

What of those well-respected artists and recordings that don't get Grammys? Or what of those who don't record commercially? We're not comparing recordings here, we're comparing (or rather discussing) conductors. Not recordings.


Yes, Solti does have famous recordings. But does a Grammy also reflect the quality of his readings? Because that's my gripe, and likewise the gripe of most others in this conversation.

Perhaps it sounds counter-intuitive to you that I suggest Grammy awards might not necessarily reflect actual musicianship, or any award given over one specific achievement reflect actual quality in comparison with all those who do not have it.

And particularly given how the Grammy awards are a U.S. "thing" and, from what I've heard, very commercial indeed...


Anyhow, that's my view: I'm just the dunce here, though, mind me not. I'll just go bang my head to some Black Metal.

[Bonehelm]

My EQ is also very poor, thank you.

Renfield mama's goodboy award would be an interesting novelty, do suggest it someplace. But if you want a serious answer, judging classical performances by recording-awards, even setting aside whether the Grammies might not have a commercial basis to them (like you won't necessarily judge good movies by Oscars), is a lost cause.

What of those well-respected artists and recordings that don't get Grammys? Or what of those who don't record commercially? We're not comparing recordings here, we're comparing (or rather discussing) conductors. Not recordings.


Yes, Solti does have famous recordings. But does a Grammy also reflect the quality of his readings? Because that's my gripe, and likewise the gripe of most others in this conversation.

Perhaps it sounds counter-intuitive to you that I suggest Grammy awards might not necessarily reflect actual musicianship, or any award given over one specific achievement reflect actual quality in comparison with all those who do not have it.

And particularly given how the Grammy awards are a U.S. "thing" and, from what I've heard, very commercial indeed...


Anyhow, that's my view: I'm just the dunce here, though, mind me not. I'll just go bang my head to some Black Metal.

I agree that the Grammy Award is not necessarily a recognized benchmark for artistic excellence especially in Classical music, but what I'm saying is, even IF 31 Grammy's dont worth anything, the CSO chief conductor post certainly does? The Decca Legends recordings certainly do? The enormous fan base certainly does?

How hasn't Solti achieved "true artistic success" in any way? Certainly "Sucess" is measured subjectively sometimes, 'cause a person could be satisfied with his $9/hr job at Burger Flipper's on a drive-thru restaurant while another might expect nothing less than a CEO chair at who-knows-what corporation's multi-storey office complex in downtown Manhattan.

But when prestigious awards such as, say the Nobel prize is awarded to a candidate, we can't deny his/her "success" now can we? Likewise, Solti gained something most orchestral conductors of the last century only wetdreamed and prayed for. This is a fact, a fact that cannot be denied unless you have flawed logic-reasoning in your brain. And when the world sees Solti standing on that podium, that one podium who made countless musicians creamed themselves over, we can undoubtedly acknowledge his excellence and hopefully "artistic success".

P.S. If you feel offended by the IQ and EQ insults I've been throwing around, don't be, they were never meant to be insults. I'm just angry at how some people can deny a simple truth. That doesn't look like you, either.

[Brian]

My EQ is also very poor, thank you.

My EQ is 60. Which makes me retarded.

[Haffner]

No wonder I like his Mahler 7 so much.....

I think the Solti-conducted Mahler 7th is captivating.  I do have a really hard time taking Solti's spin on the 6th seriously, especially right after experiencing the Karajan.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I'm not a Solti fan, just a truth-speaker, unlike most posters in this thread.

A "truth-speaker"?

Hardly.

You're simply a zealot who took a swipe at another poster (JW) who dared voice his opinion about Solti. And those of us who dared chime in with further negative comments regarding Solti are now subject to the further swipes from you.

A sure sign of zealotry. Not "truth-speaker".

[MahlerSnob]

Although it may be the only real option with some older conductors, I don't think it's really fair to judge the quality of a conductor's work based on recordings. Especially when we're talking about studio recordings. Just as the only way to really experience music is live, the only real way to get a sense of a conductor's ability and musicallity is by seeing them in performance.
That said, I don't like recordings of some conductors who I've never seen live - Maazel is a big one, as is Mehta. Of those who I have seen live I would single out Daniel Gatti and Mark Wigglesworth as being big disappointments. In defense of some of the better conductors I've worked with, Levine and Ozawa both have to be experienced live. Both do incredible things in performance that you don't see in the sterile environment of the recording studio.

[Renfield]

But when prestigious awards such as, say the Nobel prize is awarded to a candidate, we can't deny his/her "success" now can we? Likewise, Solti gained something most orchestral conductors of the last century only wetdreamed and prayed for. This is a fact, a fact that cannot be denied unless you have flawed logic-reasoning in your brain. And when the world sees Solti standing on that podium, that one podium who made countless musicians creamed themselves over, we can undoubtedly acknowledge his excellence and hopefully "artistic success".

It is a measure of success, and I think you know that I didn't say he wasn't successful.

But a Nobel, an award given for a lifetime's achievement, and following said achievement by at least a few years, being moderated by panels upon panels of experts, etc. and a Grammy, which is like an Oscar, which are both commercially-oriented awards, is not the same.

As for your point about the CSO, I do agree, but I'll also point you to your own comment about relativity:

The conductors a lot of us rank as "great" are often people who would not even care to think "hey, my prestige is sure to improve if I conduct the Chicago Symphony Orchestra", because - due to their artistic prestige - it is the other way around, more often.

Unless we're talking about orchestras like the Wiener Philharmoniker, or the Dresden Staatskapelle, which have a history of excellence going so far back, over so many lifetimes, creating such a tradition that they can be the prestige-givers to any conductor, saying that "someone directing the CSO (excellent as it is) automatically makes them great" is dubious.


Note that I am not saying it's not likely that the CSO would choose a very good conductor to direct them. But it still can hardly be used to gauge artistic excellence in comparison with the names we're comparing conductors to, here.

You think Karajan couldn't direct the CSO, if he wanted to? Or Bernstein? Or Toscanini? Or Klemperer? Could Solti direct the BPO, the NYPO, the NBC SO, the Philharmonia? I don't know, but that is a more apt question in this context.

(As I said, my own view is that he was a good - though eccentric - conductor, severely lacking in musicianship.)

[Bonehelm]

It is a measure of success, and I think you know that I didn't say he wasn't successful.

But a Nobel, an award given for a lifetime's achievement, and following said achievement by at least a few years, being moderated by panels upon panels of experts, etc. and a Grammy, which is like an Oscar, which are both commercially-oriented awards, is not the same.

As for your point about the CSO, I do agree, but I'll also point you to your own comment about relativity:

The conductors a lot of us rank as "great" are often people who would not even care to think "hey, my prestige is sure to improve if I conduct the Chicago Symphony Orchestra", because - due to their artistic prestige - it is the other way around, more often.

Unless we're talking about orchestras like the Wiener Philharmoniker, or the Dresden Staatskapelle, which have a history of excellence going so far back, over so many lifetimes, creating such a tradition that they can be the prestige-givers to any conductor, saying that "someone directing the CSO (excellent as it is) automatically makes them great" is dubious.


Note that I am not saying it's not likely that the CSO would choose a very good conductor to direct them. But it still can hardly be used to gauge artistic excellence in comparison with the names we're comparing conductors to, here.

You think Karajan couldn't direct the CSO, if he wanted to? Or Bernstein? Or Toscanini? Or Klemperer? Could Solti direct the BPO, the NYPO, the NBC SO, the Philharmonia? I don't know, but that is a more apt question in this context.

(As I said, my own view is that he was a good - though eccentric - conductor, severely lacking in musicianship.)

Solti/CSO at the golden age of 1970's is definitely on par or even better than all of the ensembles you mentioned in your post. The fact that Solti did not conduct the BPO, NYPO, NBC SO or the Philharmonia doesn't make him a worse conductor than say, Karajan. But the fact that he DID gain the post at CSO and the fact that he brought CSO to one of the definite best of American orchestras, or even one of the best in the world makes him an artist worth MUCH more recognition and admiration from the public than what the majority of this forum is giving him.

I noticed that you never said he didn't achieve great success, but like I said, my post was targetted at donywn, who apparently still has no idea what he's talking about, evident by his lame and pointless insult (who calls other people a zealot, seriously? I'm fine with forum troll, but zeal-ah, forget it).

[Renfield]

But the fact that he DID gain the post at CSO and the fact that he brought CSO to one of the definite best of American orchestras, or even one of the best in the world makes him an artist worth MUCH more recognition and admiration from the public than what the majority of this forum is giving him.

That is a point. I think if you said that before all the rest, or even instead of all the rest, all of our reactions (Donwyn's included) might have well been different. Argumentation versus rhetoric, effective or otherwise.

As for whether I agree with it (the point you make), I think it's valid enough.

And I also have Solti's recently-reissued last performance, with the Tonhalle Orchestra playing Mahler's 5th, as testament to the fact that, if perhaps only that late in his life (two months before he died), Georg Solti could make good music.

Not just good sound, mind you: good music. But opinions can differ, and I couldn't be more thankful for that.

[Bonehelm]

That is a point. I think if you said that before all the rest, or even instead of all the rest, all of our reactions (Donwyn's included) might have well been different. Argumentation versus rhetoric, effective or otherwise.

As for whether I agree with it (the point you make), I think it's valid enough.

And I also have Solti's recently-reissued last performance, with the Tonhalle Orchestra playing Mahler's 5th, as testament to the fact that, if perhaps only that late in his life (two months before he died), Georg Solti could make good music.

Not just good sound, mind you: good music. But opinions can differ, and I couldn't be more thankful for that.

Well then I'm thankful I finally made my point clear. No harm or confusion intended in my previous posts.