Disappointed by Kleiber : Brahms 4th Symphony

[Que]

I almost added "I've yet to hear Carlos Kleiber conducting operatic repertoire, though" to my post above; but I decided against it, off-topic as I was already going with it.

I am, however, certainly tempted to hear him in opera. In fact, there is a thought for me, when I next go opera-shopping!

And let's spread the word on Erich  - a phenomenal conductor!

Q

[Renfield]

And let's spread the word on Erich  - a phenomenal conductor!

Q

He most certainly is.

Such a shame he's mentioned so seldom: he truly belongs to the very top rank of German conductors of the 20th century.

[M forever]

I'm sure many GMG'ers will view the title of this thread as heretic.      But here goes .....

I am a fan of Kleiber's recording of Beethoven 5 and 7 with the VPO.      So, I had no hesitation in ordering Brahms 4 with the same team.      But I have to say that a first listening has left me somewhat cold.       The music is beautifully played and the precision is incredible.       But I find myself unmoved.        It seems to me that the emotional side is just not there.     Tempos are rock solid (not slow, but no variation) and there is little dramatic ebb and flow.     In some passages I almost get the impression that this is how a computer would play the music.          For example, I love the stormy end to the first movement and I really expect passion and attack here.      But Kleiber plays it so straight that I feel something is missing.

I compared with my only other recording, which is that of Szell and the Clevelanders.     I generally love George, but this time I found him to be far too slow and even farther away from my ideal than Kleiber.

Maybe I need Fritz Reiner, or maybe others have suggestions for a more fiery and passionate Brahms 4 recording.      In any case I will listen again to Carlos.    Maybe I wasn't in the right mood .......       But please post your recommendations for this wonderful work.

My main recommendation for this piece would be the recording with Carlos Kleiber and the Wiener Philharmoniker. It may not be the single most superficially "exciting" account of the piece (dunno what that would be), but after hearing countless live and recorded performances of this symphony (as well as having played it myself many, many times in orchestras), I always keep coming back to this performance because it is just so to-the-point, musically so dead-on in every moment, lean and mean but still very expressive, but not in a "schmaltzy", "romantic" way, just in the clarity and conviction with which the musical points are stated. Kleiber had this knack of finding exactly the right tone for every phrase in the pieces he conducted (even if those became fewer and fewer with the years) so his performances at the same time have a simplicity and clarity but still musical depth and "meaning". I also heard the 4th live with him, the only time I ever saw him conduct in person, in Berlin (1994 or so). One of the great, unforgettable musical experiences of my life. The electricity in the air was almost unbearable and the orchestra gave everything, all the musicians on the edges of their chairs, reacting to the smallest nuances Kleiber indicated. He pretty much let them play (after several very intense and detailed rehearsals) but was still totaly in control, more supervising the musical proceedings and intervening only in certain key moments. Also a great example for orchestral music making and conducting at its finest. There are good reasons for why Kleiber was so deeply admired by many, even by the most routined and cynical professional musicians.

There are many "nice" and/or "exciting" recordings of this symphony, so the options are endless, but I haven't yet heard one which I found quite as compelling as this one, only the recording by Wand and the NDR-Sinfonieorchester comes close in its musical shaping of the piece (and it is rather more "dark" and "lush" as far as the orchestral sound is concerned, so that may even be preferable for those for which that is a plus in itself).

[Sergeant Rock]

But I have to say that a first listening has left me somewhat cold.       The music is beautifully played and the precision is incredible.       But I find myself unmoved.        It seems to me that the emotional side is just not there.     Tempos are rock solid (not slow, but no variation) and there is little dramatic ebb and flow.     In some passages I almost get the impression that this is how a computer would play the music.          For example, I love the stormy end to the first movement and I really expect passion and attack here.

You've said what I've long felt about Kleiber's performance. It leaves me cold too. M talks about superficial excitement: well, Kleiber defines that phrase for me here. It's an exciting performance but too mechanical and too often skates the surface, especially that first movement. Not a bad performance by any means but not one I want to hear often.

For an incomparable "stormy end" I suggest you try Bernstein conducting the Wiener Phil, part of his Brahms cycle for DG. He reins in the tempo in the final pages of the first movement to quite dramatic and emotional effect; gives the music its full tragic weight (that's the way I hear it anyway, and want to hear it). The last movement is very slow, with tempos really hauled about. I can imagine some, maybe most becoming impatient at this point, but it's just Lenny being Lenny and I find it very moving.

Other performances I love: Furtwängler with the Berlin Phil, 10.06.49 and 15.12.43. I think Furtwängler is the supreme interpreter of Brahms and listening to one of his live performances is like riding a rollercoaster...heart-stopping emotional peaks and valleys. Very different is Wand/NDR, more straight forward but finding the essence of Brahms. His complete cycle is my favorite in modern sound and his Fourth is superb although closer in spirit to Kleiber than Bernstein or Furtwängler. Dohnányi/Cleveland really surprised me (his cycle is a recent purchase). For a conductor with a reputation for objectivity, it's surprising how un-objective his performance is...and the Cleveland sounds really splendid. The 1964 Karajan is a first love: the first Brahms Fourth I ever heard, my first Brahms recording. I claim absolutely no objectivity recommending that recording.

Sarge

[alkan]

Very interesting to hear quite divergent opinions from two stalwarts of the forum !!

I listened again to Kleiber and thought a bit more about the music.     Personally I don't feel the music as tragic at all.     That adjective just doesn't come into my head.     I think more of "serious", "majestic" and "monumental", but also "passionate and emotional";  not just the coda of the 1st movement, but the sublime moment in the slow movement when the strings play full-bloodedly after bars and bars of pizzicato accompaniment.  And the 3rd mvmt is really jolly and exhuberant.      I think it is this mixture of intellect/discipline and emotion/grandeur that gives the symphony its special character.      And it maybe this that makes it tricky to find my ideal recording that balances the two aspects.     I'm afraid that Bernstein may be right at the other end of the scale to Kleiber .... I don't like the thought of him overdoing the emotional bit ... !

Bottom line, if I'm in the mood for looking at the symphony under a microscope and trying to understand what's going on underneath the surface, I don't think I can do better than Kleiber.      If I'm looking for emotions and thrills, I probably need someone else ....

By the way, I think that the Furtwangler recording was the first one I heard, and it has probably set my high expectations.    However, right now I'm looking for a version with a little better sound. 

[Sergeant Rock]

I'm afraid that Bernstein may be right at the other end of the scale to Kleiber .... I don't like the thought of him overdoing the emotional bit

Well, Goldilocks    if Bernstein is too hot, and Kleiber too cold, there are dozens of other recordings that should be just right for you. You might check out Wand, a conductor M and I both agree on. Please keep us informed how the search goes. I'm interested in knowing which recording finally gives you everything you want.

Sarge

[M forever]

I'm afraid that Bernstein may be right at the other end of the scale to Kleiber .... I don't like the thought of him overdoing the emotional bit ... !

I don't think Bernstein is any more "emotional" or "expressive" than Kleiber. It's just a different kind of emotionality and expressiveness. Apart from Wand's recording, maybe you should also check out Giulini's last recording, with the Wiener Philharmoniker, too. It is rather broader and "grander" then both Kleiber and Bernstein but it is a very intense and "tragic" reading in the way it conveys a feeling of inevitability and the workings of fate driving the music.

[alkan]

Well, Goldilocks    if Bernstein is too hot, and Kleiber too cold,

Apart from their awful conducting, both Kleiber and Bernstein are abyssmal at making porridge.     I just don't understand how two intelligent people can fail to get the temperature right for such a straightforward dish.         Oh well, looks like I need to check out "baby-bear Wand" ..... hopefully he will be "just right"   

[Brian]

Apart from their awful conducting, both Kleiber and Bernstein

Careful, you may have just made a lot of well-informed enemies. 

[alkan]

Careful, you may have just made a lot of well-informed enemies. 

Whoops .... did I really say "awful conducting"      I meant to say "awful cooking" !!! 
Sorry for the misunderstanding ..... 

[George]

Whoops .... did I really say "awful conducting"      I meant to say "awful cooking" !!! 
Sorry for the misunderstanding ..... 

Bernstein once made me a superb grilled cheese. 

[Brian]

Bernstein once made me a superb grilled cheese. 

[scarpia]

If you regard it as a disappointment that this isn't the best recording of Brahms 4 of all time, then maybe you have a point.  But I would only say a recording or performance is disappointing if it fails to do justice to the piece in an absolute sense.  I can't see how this recording, that combines the performance tradition of the VPO with Kleiber's sensitive yet vigorous interpretation can disappoint. 

However, there are other remarkable recordings.  I'd say the best I have ever heard is the Kertesz, VPO on Decca (1973).  The entire set is wonderful in the way it lets the unobtrusive counterpoint the is present in every bar of Brahms reveal itself.  Another that is remarkable is Karajan's 1964 recording.  In that recording he takes the first movement unusually slowly, and uses the extra time to make the articulation and phrasing extraordinarily vivid.  One for the ages.  I also like Karajan's 1978 recording, although that one is to some extant sabotaged by the DG engineers, the winds and brass are far to dull and weak in the mix, causing the strings to dominate inappropriately. Szell is very taut in Brahms, not at all bad, but lacking in charm, a similar approach that works better for me is the Bohm VPO set.  Bernstein, well the less said the better. 

I'm sure many GMG'ers will view the title of this thread as heretic.      But here goes .....

I am a fan of Kleiber's recording of Beethoven 5 and 7 with the VPO.      So, I had no hesitation in ordering Brahms 4 with the same team.      But I have to say that a first listening has left me somewhat cold.       The music is beautifully played and the precision is incredible.       But I find myself unmoved.        It seems to me that the emotional side is just not there.     Tempos are rock solid (not slow, but no variation) and there is little dramatic ebb and flow.     In some passages I almost get the impression that this is how a computer would play the music.          For example, I love the stormy end to the first movement and I really expect passion and attack here.      But Kleiber plays it so straight that I feel something is missing.

I compared with my only other recording, which is that of Szell and the Clevelanders.     I generally love George, but this time I found him to be far too slow and even farther away from my ideal than Kleiber.

Maybe I need Fritz Reiner, or maybe others have suggestions for a more fiery and passionate Brahms 4 recording.      In any case I will listen again to Carlos.    Maybe I wasn't in the right mood .......       But please post your recommendations for this wonderful work.

[samtrb]

Walter/NYPO, Jochum/LSO, and Dorati all put Kleiber in the shade, IMO.

I prefer Jochum/Berlin over Jochum/LSO, on the double DG, mono, only problem is the sound that might not be always balanced and elegant, but top performance.

[alkan]

If you regard it as a disappointment that this isn't the best recording of Brahms 4 of all time, then maybe you have a point.  But I would only say a recording or performance is disappointing if it fails to do justice to the piece in an absolute sense.  I can't see how this recording, that combines the performance tradition of the VPO with Kleiber's sensitive yet vigorous interpretation can disappoint. 

Let me clarify.      I take as a basic assumption that there are NO absolutes in good/bad interpretations .... everything is subjective  (which makes it all interesting of course).        I really like Kleiber's Beethoven 5 and 7, and I have seen many ecstatic reviews of his Brahms 4.      So my expectations were REALLY high when the CD arrived in the post.       But I've heard this music many times before, and certain high points from live concerts or other CD's stick in my mind and set my expectations.      So it was quite wierd that I felt a little "cheated" by my first hearing of Kleiber.     I was expecting more thrills at the high points and didn't get them.         Now, if I approach Kleiber's CD in the frame of mind "I really want to understand the structure, the details, what's under the surface, and how did Brahms construct this monument?", then Kleiber is absolutely marvellous.        I suspect that this is one of those recordings that "grows on you" with repeated hearings ...... it is certainly beautifully played, and the control of the phrasing and synchronisation is razor sharp.     Maybe this level of technical perfection is an "enemy" of fully conveying emotions, which tend to be untidier and more impulsive ......    As Sarge pointed out, you can't have it both ways (hot and cold porridge) ........   although I am encouraged that Cindarella did manage to find some porridge that was "just right"

Thanks for your other recommendations.      It's a pity I have a limited budget, but I'll keep them in mind when I go bargain hunting and when I visit the library ...

[Opus106]

 although I am encouraged that Cindarella did manage to find some porridge that was "just right"

And the glass slipper fit perfectly, too! 

[alkan]

And the glass slipper fit perfectly, too! 

Whoooops ...... there I go, mixing up my nursery stories !!!!      I meant to say "Goldilocks" of course .....

Well, all I can say in my defence is that it was all a loooong time ago ....

[Brian]

The direction this thread has taken surprises me, because while I guess I agree that Kleiber's performance is beautifully built, the appeal of it for me is that it always just about moves me to tears. Here I thought it was incredibly emotional all this time 

[Renfield]

The direction this thread has taken surprises me, because while I guess I agree that Kleiber's performance is beautifully built, the appeal of it for me is that it always just about moves me to tears. Here I thought it was incredibly emotional all this time 

Let's just say some of us prefer the roller coaster approach. If I was to discuss emotional content, I'd say I perceive Kleiber's as a melancholic traversal, but not one leading to (as Karajan used to say) "complete catastrophe".

That's why I place it in the second rank of favourite Brahms' 4ths. Make no mistake, like the Beethoven 5th I often "bash", it is a superb performance: just not right, not for me (and not only me, as it would seem).

[alkan]

??

Make no mistake, like the Beethoven 5th I often "bash"

What's your favourite Beethoven 5th Symphony ?