Chinese internal affairs

[Bonehelm]

Sarastro and Bonehelm, I have only one issue I want to pick up with you, especially since you are backing one another up in it. That is your suggestion that you have to have lived somewhere to have a legitimate profound opinion about it.

That would exclude almost everyone from commenting about most places. You both have a great advantage and we are very interested in your fix; which is gained at first hand. But, others of us can form legitimate opinions based on comparisons between wherever they live and being intelligent about the sources they use in order to learn about other countries.

Taking your own stricture to the extreme, we cannot even learn from you....since most of us have not lived in Hong Kong or Russia. Using your own argument against you, neither of you will have a legitimate opinion on the UK....unless you come here to live. I don't buy into that idea.

Another angle on it: the opening line from the book The Go-Between is, "The past is another country, they do things differently there." And that is very true. So, to know anything about history, we need to rely on a combination of eye witness accounts and other evidence plus the informed opinion of scholars. Again, extending your argument, we might as well forget about trying to understand any history, none of us were there for most of it.

Again I don't buy into that.

Sarastro, when I was reading the post you attributed to the M technique; I had assumed you were successfully channelling Bunny; well done either way.

Mike

True, I've never lived in the UK, but do you see me making threads here titled "Great Britain's internal affairs"?

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

If we watch western media, we should see what our "knowledge" about China and Russia is worth. It's just western propaganda. It's the choice of news that counts. I don't buy anything at all, at least it's getting lesser and lesser.
Watched CNN two days ago and they reported about Russia/Georgia. A shame. What a propaganda channel. OH, Russia leaves Georgia 5 minutes too late. OH, they destroyed a bridge!!!1! Unbelieveable! The Ivans have gone crazy again!²!!! OH, people have been killed (Georgians only). How surprising in a war! OH, lootings! Again, how surprising! German media followed the western guidelines very soon.
In my opinion Putin was/is a stability factor for Europe, much better than Vodka Jelzin. I may be wrong.

And I'd say it's pretty unfair to only judge over a country from a regime opponents point of view. Most people aren't. From only one point of view! How ridiculous! We have Russian emigrants, who happily go back to russia. Let's not forget: Countries and their people have millions of good and interesting aspects. Not only if a regime is democratic or not.

[knight66]

True, I've never lived in the UK, but do you see me making threads here titled "Great Britain's internal affairs"?

No....but that does not mean I would discount your opinions if you gave them, merely because you had not lived there. Our knowledge of the world has to be wider than merely the small corner we personally experience. It is about being intelligent in our selection of sources, which will almost inevitably end up being biased.

If people here only get their information from the Daily Mail and believe it, then they will be purblind and prejudiced. I tend to read The Times; but there is a lot of it I simply don't believe.

Recently I visited Jordan and I urge anyone to to that to get an alternative view to that of the Rabid-Arab caricature that the Western Media often pushes on us; but then, that merely confirmed what I knew from other sources, that Arabs, like others, can be open, friendly and reflective....nothing at all like the typical Jihadist extreme. So, going there is great, living there provides real insights, but there are other forms of legitimate opinion forming.

Mike

[Bonehelm]

If we watch western media, we should see what our "knowledge" about China and Russia is worth. It's just western propaganda. It's the choice of news that counts. I don't buy anything at all, at least it's getting lesser and lesser.
Watched CNN two days ago and they reported about Russia/Georgia. A shame. What a propaganda channel. OH, Russia leaves Georgia 5 minutes too late. OH, they destroyed a bridge!!!1! Unbelieveable! The Ivans have gone crazy again!²!!! OH, people have been killed (Georgians only). How surprising in a war! OH, lootings! Again, how surprising! German media followed the western guidelines very soon.
In my opinion Putin was/is a stability factor for Europe, much better than Vodka Jelzin. I may be wrong.

And I'd say it's pretty unfair to only judge over a country from a regime opponents point of view. Most people aren't. From only one point of view! How ridiculous! We have Russian emigrants, who happily go back to russia. Let's not forget: Countries and their people have millions of good and interesting aspects. Not only if a regime is democratic or not.

Excellent points 

No....but that does not mean I would discount your opinions if you gave them, merely because you had not lived there. Our knowledge of the world has to be wider than merely the small corner we personally experience. It is about being intelligent in our selection of sources, which will almost inevitably end up being biased.

If people here only get their information from the Daily Mail and believe it, then they will be purblind and prejudiced. I tend to read The Times; but there is a lot of it I simply don't believe.

Recently I visited Jordan and I urge anyone to to that to get an alternative view to that of the Rabid-Arab caricature that the Western Media often pushes on us; but then, that merely confirmed what I knew from other sources, that Arabs, like others, can be open, friendly and reflective....nothing at all like the typical Jihadist extreme. So, going there is great, living there provides real insights, but there are other forms of legitimate opinion forming.

Mike

That sounds good, I agree. 

[Sarastro]

Sarastro and Bonehelm, I have only one issue I want to pick up with you, especially since you are backing one another up in it. That is your suggestion that you have to have lived somewhere to have a legitimate profound opinion about it.

That would exclude almost everyone from commenting about most places. You both have a great advantage and we are very interested in your fix; which is gained at first hand. But, others of us can form legitimate opinions based on comparisons between wherever they live and being intelligent about the sources they use in order to learn about other countries.

Taking your own stricture to the extreme, we cannot even learn from you....since most of us have not lived in Hong Kong or Russia. Using your own argument against you, neither of you will have a legitimate opinion on the UK....unless you come here to live. I don't buy into that idea.

Another angle on it: the opening line from the book The Go-Between is, "The past is another country, they do things differently there." And that is very true. So, to know anything about history, we need to rely on a combination of eye witness accounts and other evidence plus the informed opinion of scholars. Again, extending your argument, we might as well forget about trying to understand any history, none of us were there for most of it.

Again I don't buy into that.

Sarastro, when I was reading the post you attributed to the M technique; I had assumed you were successfully channelling Bunny; well done either way.

Mike

True, I've never lived in the UK, but do you see me making threads here titled "Great Britain's internal affairs"?

I do not make such threads either and was going to reply the same, but with little difference.

Mike,
Though first I thought you are right and this is a one-sided point of view, it turns out that knowing the country from the inside will eventually prevail as a major factor in discussing "internal affairs," maybe not direct knowing, but as least...so here I go (hopefully do not fall asleep).

Knowing the nation from the inside has substantial validity in discussing such things, especially when you switch East to West and understand what was wrong about the West there and what is wrong about the East here. Here I am just concerned how mislead and media-dependent some people are. Not just here, many people in Russia think completely dumb things about the USA.

It is also a good idea to check if a person has bias. Unlike M or Bunny, I do not tend to be very pro-Western, on the other hand, unlike Florestan, not very aggressive towards the Soviets and Russia (yes, I've noticed it reading old topics and one particular topic that grew up into WWII discussion), but I enjoy living here, know positive sides and am certainly no defender of the Stalinism society. I do not trust most of the media and prefer to hear what ordinary people say about their homeland - here they are, biased anyway, either for or against - but at least it makes sense and presents the inside. I would gladly trust credible-the-least-biased scholars, but they may come up with a legitimate opinion only after having lived in a nation, not just outside.

And if someone has a personal story of his/her misfortunes in China and how they couldn't sell them something, it may indicate only bad luck or fatality, or just be accidental, I don't know...just not enough to make conclusions about how things are going there and how deprived and unhappy people are.

[knight66]

We will just have to agree to disagree a bit over this. What comes to my mind is the BBC correspondent Mark Tully. He lived in India for a very long time and clearly loved the country, without being in the least blind to it's problems or what caused them. He certainly had a better understanding of what made India tick than most of the locals could have had, as he had access to such a range of people and circumstances. Likewise, the writer William Dalrymple has in recent years provided books and journalism from what is almost his adopted country. Again insights galore. Such sources are valuable and together with Indian friends have been giving me a reasonable range of impressions.

I am not going to concede that... you have to have lived there. But, as I indicated, when you do live in a place, it can give you unique authority....though you can also be so close you cannot see what is going on in your own society. Speaking to many of the men and women on the streets here....I would not put much weight on their opinions about a lot of things. Many could not tell you the name of their MP, what vegetables come into season and when, roughly how many people live in their town and so on. Even personal experience is viewed from a specific viewpoint, observing how locals have reacted to one set of events in Georgia exemplifies how the same events give rise to extremely different opinions on what happened and why.

Now...must go off to work unfortunately.

Mike

[Florestan]

unlike Florestan, not very aggressive towards the Soviets and Russia (yes, I've noticed it reading old topics and one particular topic that grew up into WWII discussion)

Well, this is a little upside-down. The USSR have been aggressive to Romania and implicitly to me, not the other way around. My dislike of Russian foreign politics is not based on fantasy or biased media. It's based on historical facts and figures and on personal experience. My country would have been a far better place than it is now had it not been for the USSR and its puppet regime in Bucharest. I am not going to derail this thread with details about the systematical and criminal destruction of the whole fabric of Romanian society inflicted with the help of Soviet komissars by the Communist regime forced down our throats at the point of the Red Army's machine-guns --- and all done in the name of liberation and democracy. Suffice it to say that this is more than enough to make me distrust Russian government and officials even when they say "Good day"...

[Sarastro]

Well, this is a little upside-down. The USSR have been aggressive to Romania and implicitly to me, not the other way around. My dislike of Russian foreign politics is not based on fantasy or biased media. It's based on historical facts and figures and on personal experience. My country would have been a far better place than it is now had it not been for the USSR and its puppet regime in Bucharest. I am not going to derail this thread with details about the systematical and criminal destruction of the whole fabric of Romanian society inflicted with the help of Soviet komissars by the Communist regime forced down our throats at the point of the Red Army's machine-guns --- and all done in the name of liberation and democracy. Suffice it to say that this is more than enough to make me distrust Russian government and officials even when they say "Good day"...

I am sorry.

though you can also be so close you cannot see what is going on in your own society.

I understand your point clearly, that is why I mentioned switching the poles; it opens new perspectives and helped me realize Russia's vices, by the way. That's why "have lived" was used instead of "have been living."


And I go off to sleep.

[Florestan]

I am sorry.

I appreciate that. And please don't get me wrong, I am not a Russophobic. I love Russian music and literature and I don't hold the common Russian people accountable for the faults and crimes of the Russian government.

[DavidRoss]

It's not true that we understand a nation by virtue of living among them.  If it were true, then most of us would understand our wives.

[bwv 1080]

Maybe they have different prices?

The PPP(purchasing power parity) adjustments take this into account, the and with the adjustments, the capita income of china is around $5300 / yr (it is $2500 / year without the adjustment)

To put this into perspective, it is less than half the per capita income of Mexico

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

The US poverty line for a single individual is $10,400 / yr (the threshold is higher for families

[knight66]

It's not true that we understand a nation by virtue of living among them.  If it were true, then most of us would understand our wives.

I thought wives came from a diffeent plant, not quite the girl from next door.

Mike

[DavidRoss]

I thought wives came from a diffeent plant, not quite the girl from next door.

Planet?  As in, "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus...and wives are from a genetic engineering lab in Hell?"

[Wanderer]

"...and wives are from a genetic engineering lab in Hell?"

That would explain a lot... 

[Sarastro]

Planet?  As in, "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus...and wives are from a genetic engineering lab in Hell?"

Women are from Venus, but as far as I know they undergo severe metamorphoses on the Earth and after the marriage.

[knight66]

Well, no complaints about my wife whatsoever. I am sure she puts up with a lot more than I do.

Mike

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, no complaints about my wife whatsoever. I am sure she puts up with a lot more than I do.

Mike

Ah, I see you have given her your log on password...

[knight66]

She was standing over me with a cattle prodder.....but has now gone to bully my son to tidy up his room; so I have at least an hour.

Mike

[Bonehelm]

 ...GMG off-topic threads really do have a more complexly interesting development than any 20th century avant-garde composer's work...

[greg]

...GMG off-topic threads really do have a more complexly interesting development than any 20th century avant-garde composer's work...

Hehe