Question on Mahler

[The new erato]

How did Mahler as a great composer justify spending most of his time conducting, and only summers composing? He must have known that his compositions in posterity would eventually reach an amount of listeners great enough to dwarf those who attended the concerts he conducted. Was this a need for income? Or what? Did he feel his inspiration was such that summers alone was enough to satisfy it?

Can anyone imagine any of the other truly greats (except for Bach, who probably made no real distinctions among composing, performing, teaching and conducting), but say, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Wagner, Brahms, whoever you will, restricting himself basically to composing only in summertime?

I can't see there is any reason to think he had more music in him if he had had more time to compose. I'm not saying there weren't but we will never know, and composing is a matter of reflection, maturing and developing complex ideas. If he had composed more, maybe quality qould have suffered? And he maybe never would have been subject to the impulses and experiences that made him the Mahler we know.

On the other hand, he just may have been an inconsiderate SOB that never thought of US!

[greg]

No offense, but that information can be easily obtain via the internet. Ever heard of wikipedia.org? I mean there are endless ways to obtain information on Mahler's life, so why come to a forum to ask for that information(often unreliable), when you can easily obtain it else where?

I wonder about that, too, myself...... there was someone who asked about the history of the piano in another thread not long ago. I think the real motive was that they were doing some report for school and didn't want to plagiarize a source, so they had to ask someone to put it in their own words. If they can use a search engine to find GMG, i think they could use it to find some info about the piano.

[Chaszz]

No offense, but that information can be easily obtain via the internet. Ever heard of wikipedia.org? I mean there are endless ways to obtain information on Mahler's life, so why come to a forum to ask for that information(often unreliable), when you can easily obtain it else where?

I wish I were young enough, or even within shouting distance of it, to be doing a report for school. The main reason I asked it here was to save time. Although I've not read a biography of Mahler, I've read articles on the web and chapters in musical history books where the summer composing is mentioned along with the winter conducting, but no explanation or elaboration is given. I noticed there were a good number of Mahler fans here and thought I could get a ready answer. And wikipedia has been shown many times to be unreliable. Along with the reply from the shark which has been deleted by the moderator as abusive, the whole experience with this thread including the quote I am answering here (even with his disclaimer of offense), has gone far toward making me consider avoiding this site and based on other experiences, classical music forums in general. Life is too short for this kind of stuff. To outlast someone like AC Douglas, who has thankfully exiled himself from a number of sites, and then meet other people who belong to his school, is a bit too much. I suppose the whole internet is famous for bad feelings and flaming hiding behind anonymity, but classical music sites is where I've personally experienced behavior which people would never exhibit in person in a real-life group. It reminds me of road behavior, which also is made possible by anonymity, in that case relative rather than total.

[greg]

I wish I were young enough, or even within shouting distance of it, to be doing a report for school.

ah, ok 
Well, i myself feel disappointed that i couldn't give you a good answer for this, since as you can tell, Mahler is like my idol.... beyond words.  0:) I've read a biography but it was so boring that I don't remember hardly anything from it. And as I posted before, there's some I'm interested in purchasing but don't have the money for.

My advice is, you can quit posting, but you shouldn't let certain people get to you. People say really stupid stuff sometimes, but I still find it worth posting here, given what I learn all the time. Don't take them seriously. And I wouldn't want you leave. 

[Gustav]

I wish I were young enough, or even within shouting distance of it, to be doing a report for school.

excuses, one is never too old to learn.

The main reason I asked it here was to save time.

Well, there are no shortcuts to learning. You get what you put into it.

Although I've not read a biography of Mahler, I've read articles on the web and chapters in musical history books where the summer composing is mentioned along with the winter conducting, but no explanation or elaboration is given. I noticed there were a good number of Mahler fans here and thought I could get a ready answer.

Well, being a fan don't always equate to being an expert, you know.

And wikipedia has been shown many times to be unreliable.

That maybe true, but last time i checked, their entries on biographies are solid, good stuff. You should check it out, i mean, not that many people are disputing Mahler's life you know.

Along with the reply from the shark which has been deleted by the moderator as abusive, the whole experience with this thread including the quote I am answering here (even with his disclaimer of offense), has gone far toward making me consider avoiding this site and based on other experiences, classical music forums in general. Life is too short for this kind of stuff. To outlast someone like AC Douglas, who has thankfully exiled himself from a number of sites, and then meet other people who belong to his school, is a bit too much. I suppose the whole internet is famous for bad feelings and flaming hiding behind anonymity, but classical music sites is where I've personally experienced behavior which people would never exhibit in person in a real-life group. It reminds me of road behavior, which also is made possible by anonymity, in that case relative rather than total.

the nature of internet forums, is inhuman. You don't know who you are talking to, you don't care about what you say, and words are often misleading, and can easily be misinterpreted by different people. It's not really anyone's fault, but you could've posted your question on "classical music for beginners" section instead of "general classical music discussion".
-Walter

[jochanaan]

Oh, give Chaszz a break!  After all, he precipitated a fun discussion!  (At least, I had fun. )  And sometimes it's just more interesting to see what other people say.

[greg]

you don't care what you say

Ubloobideega.

[mahler10th]

Ubloobideega.

Yes indeed.  And proozinzantialophaleeffo.

Right.  Who tried to read that there and make sense of it?  Remember...you don't care what you say....I even had to edit the bugger

[zamyrabyrd]

Mahler, the composer is practically impossible to imagine without Mahler, the conductor.

His mastery of the orchestra as instrument couldn't be other than a direct consequence of being at the helm of an orchestra for so many years, or at least a large factor. The lyricism in his works also must have been influenced by his immersion in opera. Apparently he didn't have the need to write his own. His vocal music (Song of the Earth, 8th Symphony, songs) are eminently lyric but not necessarily dramatic. His sound world apparently didn't need props and action.

ZB

[Cato]

The great Mahler biography by Henry-Louis de la Grange is highly recommended: I read it as it was released over 30 years ago, and it is not unlike reading a Tolstoy novel.

Another Henry, Henri Troyat, did in fact write a biography of Tolstoy, which reads like a Tolstoy novel!   

No doubt Mahler the composer needed the conductor: he was able to test things e.g. one is reminded of his search for the right hammer sounds for the Sixth Symphony.  Without his conducting position, such access would not have been possible.

[M forever]

Why not?

[Cato]

Why not?

Well, how much does it cost to rent a symphony orchestra in Vienna  to try out a new symphony?   0:)

As its conductor, Mahler had an advantage in that!

[karlhenning]

Right. I am a composer, but I have no such access.

Heck, there's just been a four-day festival with ten or so Boston chamber ensembles performing nothing but music by living composers.  I had no access there, either.

[scarpia]

Right. I am a composer, but I have no such access.

Heck, there's just been a four-day festival with ten or so Boston chamber ensembles performing nothing but music by living composers.  I had no access there, either.

[jochanaan]

Right. I am a composer, but I have no such access...

Neither did Charles Ives.

[M forever]

Well, how much does it cost to rent a symphony orchestra in Vienna  to try out a new symphony?   0:)

You don't have to rent a whole orchestra in order to try out effects like a hammer. There were/are many composers who did not conduct but who did get chances to try out stuff, even have their music tried and performed by established orchestras. They didn't need to be conductors for that. And Mahler couldn't just have his orchestra in Vienna play his stuff as he pleased either. It wasn't "his" orchestra anyway. Which is why all the symphonies were premiered elsewhere (except for the posthumous premieres conducted by Walter with the WP), wherever it could be organized.
Orchestras weren't actually that expensive to hire or put together back then, as orchestral musicians made far less money than they did today. The Wiener Verein für Musikalische Privataufführungen around Schönberg and is friends rented orchestras like the Wiener Symphoniker/Tonkünstler Orchester from time to time to try out and perform their works.

Mahler the composer certainly benefitted immensely from his experience as a conductor because he knew exactly how orchestras work and what they could do, but it didn't make it any easier in practical terms for him as a composer to get performed or to "try out" stuff. More likely, the contrary is true, because he was often accused of writing "Kapellmeistermusik", music thrown together from bits and pieces and chunks of this and that as it was expected from a professional Kapellmeister to fabricate sometimes, e.g. for incidental music scores.

[Cato]

You don't have to rent a whole orchestra in order to try out effects like a hammer. There were/are many composers who did not conduct but who did get chances to try out stuff, even have their music tried and performed by established orchestras. They didn't need to be conductors for that. And Mahler couldn't just have his orchestra in Vienna play his stuff as he pleased either. It wasn't "his" orchestra anyway. Which is why all the symphonies were premiered elsewhere (except for the posthumous premieres conducted by Walter with the WP), wherever it could be organized.
Orchestras weren't actually that expensive to hire or put together back then, as orchestral musicians made far less money than they did today. The Wiener Verein für Musikalische Privataufführungen around Schönberg and is friends rented orchestras like the Wiener Symphoniker/Tonkünstler Orchester from time to time to try out and perform their works.

Mahler the composer certainly benefitted immensely from his experience as a conductor because he knew exactly how orchestras work and what they could do, but it didn't make it any easier in practical terms for him as a composer to get performed or to "try out" stuff. More likely, the contrary is true, because he was often accused of writing "Kapellmeistermusik", music thrown together from bits and pieces and chunks of this and that as it was expected from a professional Kapellmeister to fabricate sometimes, e.g. for incidental music scores.

My emphasis above.

To prove this of course, you would need an alternate universe,   
where Mahler is not a conductor, and then see how his music develops without the conducting side of musical life.

I never said that Mahler treated the Vienna orchestras as his personal music box, merely that he had an advantage through his conducting reputation.  And I would quibble just a little about the hammer test, since in fact for the Sixth Symphony various kinds were tested, and when played in the hall fell short of the sound Mahler had imagined.

And the point by Apostrophe is also quite right, and seems to be the opinion of most people here: the access to an orchestra was more than access to a lathe or band-saw.

What we wish for Mahler, rather than more time as a composer via less time spent conducting, is another 20-30 years of life!   0:)

[Gustav]

What we wish for Mahler, rather than more time as a composer via less time spent conducting, is another 20-30 years of life!   0:)

And experiencing though the first world war? Are you mad, he might abandon tonality altogether!

[Cato]

And experiencing thought the first world war? Are you mad, he might abandon tonality altogether!

Well, check the signs in that Tenth Symphony, the massive 10-note chord in the central climax, not to mention the pre-Webernian aroma in the Ninth Symphony!   

[karlhenning]

. . . not to mention the pre-Webernian aroma in the Ninth Symphony!   

"Smells Like Teen Spirit"?