Elliott Carter versus John Williams

[greg]

True, but if you're simply uncertain about something (but don't despise it), you have a chance at liking it after repeated listening.

[lukeottevanger]

Luke,

I fear, with respect, that a major point is being missed here.

Loving and appreciating music is nothing to do with "understanding" or "learning" about the composer, or the system of notation, or the "language" - or whether the idiom is based on an 8, 12 or 197,400 tone scale.

It is simply about an immediate, emotional, even spiritual, reaction.

You don't have to know anything about Allegri, or his music, to feel shivers up your spine when you listen to a great performance of his  Miserere.  It connects immediately with something archetypal within the human soul. Music that doesn't, isn't.

Oh, I see. I wish you'd said that before. Why don't you tell us these things, Eric?

Still, my point (and do I have to point out that it may just be the weeniest bit facetious?) is that this is surely how we all feel about Sean's writing, including you, as you have indicated: we 'simply [have] an immediate, emotional, even spiritual, reaction'. Sean is resolutely opposed to any kind of 'intellectual' systems in Art, believing as you do that the sensuous reaction is 'the thing'; and his writing remains true to this belief of his.

[Joe_Campbell]

I knew this "poll" was an agenda! I knew it! Why couldn't you just come out and say that you think that modern classical music is out of touch with your aesthetic sensibility? Did you think you could 'trick' people into admitting sheepishly that they actually have no interest in the music of Carter? pssh

If I went with your instincts, I would have never have come to appreciate Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, or anything by Xenakis. Music doesn't have to make me feel good for me to enjoy it. Penderecki is an immediate example.

[Homo Aestheticus]

If I went with your instincts, I would have never have come to appreciate Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, or anything by Xenakis. Music doesn't have to make me feel good for me to enjoy it. Penderecki is an immediate example.

What about  Pelleas et Melisande ?

Do you know it ?

[Joe_Campbell]

What about  Pelleas et Melisande ?

Do you know it ?

I know of it. I haven't heard it. I probably should, considering my fascination with almost all of Debussy's other music. To be honest, it's just hard for me to get into opera.

[Cato]

What about  Pelleas et Melisande ?

Do you know it ?

Why yes, it is one of my favorite works by Arnold Schoenberg!   0:)

Opus 5: highly recommended!

[Kullervo]

It connects immediately with something archetypal within the human soul.

I don't think so. One's initial reaction — whether it's hate or love (or something in between) — to a piece of music has nothing to do with anything "inborn", but everything to do with a person's previous experiences (even going back to early childhood). It doesn't even necessarily have to be musical influences, in my experience.

[karlhenning]

Really? Oh yes, I suppose it does....well I never! 

Well, hardly ever . . . .

[karlhenning]

Just for the record, Le sacre du printemps has always made me "feel good."  So from my perspective, there is no case for any "superiority" on the part of the Debussy on that account.

[Joe_Campbell]

Does it make you regular?

[karlhenning]

This is a song about vegetables, they keep you regular, they're real good for ya.

Call any vegetable, call it by name . . . .

[Joe Barron]

Just a quick note: I saw the title, I saw the name, and I am here to announce that I will not participate in this thread and have not read whatever silly but predictable provocation the The Ardent Pederast has written up top. I thought this board was through with this kind of thing.

[lukeottevanger]

It was. But then he came back.

[Josquin des Prez]

I think they both suck. There, i said it. Sorry, but American classical music is just full of fail. The best American musicians are jazz artists in my book.

[karlhenning]

Sorry, but American classical music is just full of fail.

An unsuccessful statement on more than one level.

[Josquin des Prez]

Well, don't feel bad. I still haven't heard anything of yours besides a few snippets so you weren't included in my sweeping generalization.

But really, why do Anglo-Saxons make such poor musicians? Not only America, but England too has seen a relative dearth of musical talent throughout it's history. Must be the weather or something.

[bwv 1080]

Well, don't feel bad. I still haven't heard anything of yours besides a few snippets so you weren't included in my sweeping generalization.

But really, why do Anglo-Saxons make such poor musicians? Not only America, but England too has seen a relative dearth of musical talent throughout it's history. Must be the weather or something.

Odd statement for someone with the moniker of a Renaissance composer - Leonel Power and Dunstable were the most important composers of the early renaissance.  then there was Tallis, Byrd, Gibbons etc.

[Homo Aestheticus]

I think they both suck. There, i said it. Sorry, but American classical music is just full of fail. The best American musicians are jazz artists in my book.

Josquin,

Wow, I never thought I'd see anyone diss Elliott Carter on this board.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

But really, why do Anglo-Saxons make such poor musicians? Not only America, but England too has seen a relative dearth of musical talent throughout it's history. Must be the weather or something.

That's rather narrow-minded in the face of what the Anglo-Saxons have contributed to the world of art in general. Literature, painting, poetry, film, etc..., all at the supreme levels of achievement.

And the music's not as bad as all that, with Britten (at least) certainly belonging among the greats. 

[greg]

But really, why do Anglo-Saxons make such poor musicians? Not only America, but England too has seen a relative dearth of musical talent throughout it's history. Must be the weather or something.

I tend to feel the same way. They just don't compare to the Germans or Russians, or even the French. But I still find a lot to like, even if it's not as much as the latter.