Elgar and Berlioz Compared

[karlhenning]

[Had to move this from another thread where it just Did Not Belong]

You need one work from both Berlioz and Elgar to make the comparison and hear the similarities.

(1)  I have heard several works of both composers, a collective duration of at least twenty hours of music.  That puts me in a much better position to judge than you, wouldn't you think?  My only "disadvantage" is, that I do not labor under the overwhelming need to praise Elgar, at any cost to facts and to the truth.

(2)  All right:  so which one of Berlioz's works have you heard? 

(3)  Now, demonstrate your musical expertise, already:  write us four paragraphs, with musical references, detailing the similarities between the two composers.

Come now, according to you it is easy;  you only need to know one piece by each composer.

[Haffner]

Both are terrific composers. La Sinfonia Fantastica is one of my favorite works by anyone. But Elgar happens to be preferred by me overall, if that's what this thread is about.

Elgar's Symphonies can really rewarding, but I think his chamber music is where his real Genius lies, especially his often awe-inspiring Cello works.

Just opinion.

[Don]

Both are terrific composers. La Sinfonia Fantastica is one of my favorite works by anyone. But Elgar happens to be preferred by me overall, if that's what this thread is about.

I thought humiliation was the theme of this thread.

[BachQ]

Elgar's Symphonies can really rewarding,

How deep is your appreciation of the 1st mvt of Elgar's 1st symphony?  Do you honestly enjoy that entirely and without abatement?  If so, hats off to you . . . . . .

[Haffner]

How deep is your appreciation of the 1st mvt of Elgar's 1st symphony?  Do you honestly enjoy that entirely and without abatement?  If so, hats off to you . . . . . .

Does that mean you don't like it, D? I'm just asking. I happen to like the Symphonies quite alot. But that's just me.

[Don]

How deep is your appreciation of the 1st mvt of Elgar's 1st symphony?  Do you honestly enjoy that entirely and without abatement?  If so, hats off to you . . . . . .

Yes, that 1st Movement can be a chore.  Sometimes I think that Elgar got "stuck" on the basic theme and couldn't let it go.

[BachQ]

Does that mean you don't like it, D? I'm just asking. I happen to like the Symphonies quite alot. But that's just me.

As Don suggests, the 1st mvt of the 1st symphony is a chore to plod through (some have called it "crap", and, historically, I have not been quick to disagree with that assessment . . . . . .)

[Haffner]

As Don suggests, the 1st mvt of the 1st symphony is a chore to plod through (some have called it "crap", and I have not been quick to disagree with that assessment . . . . . .)

Maybe it is a bit repetitive...hmmm, sounds okay to me. I'm weird  .

[Don]

Maybe it is a bit repetitive...hmmm, sounds okay to me. I'm weird  .

Well, there's repetition in most muscial works, but I do have some problems with the amount of it in the 1st Movement.  About twice a year, I tackle that movement again; I'm not convinced that I can't appreciate it much more than I currently do.

[karlhenning]

I thought humiliation was the theme of this thread.

You are mistaken.  I don't believe Blom is in any position to be humiliated by this thread, even if that were its theme.

Both are terrific composers. La Sinfonia Fantastica is one of my favorite works by anyone. But Elgar happens to be preferred by me overall, if that's what this thread is about.

Elgar's Symphonies can really rewarding, but I think his chamber music is where his real Genius lies, especially his often awe-inspiring Cello works.

Just opinion.

Both are indeed terrific composers;  I enjoy them both a great deal.  Stylistically and aesthetically, they carve out such different space, I should have trouble comparing them;  so any neighbors who can shed light, have my gratitude and attention.

Blom has made a peculiar statement attempting to link the orchestration of Berlioz and Elgar.  Now, 71 dB simply adores Elgar, and why not?  He is welcome to his musical joys.  Adoring Elgar isn't for everyone, but no matter.  And since the Blom quote tends simply to laud Elgar, by way of tying him to great composers before him, its appeal for 71 dB is obvious.

The theme of this thread is an inquiry into the question of whether the work of the two respective composers is really comparable.

Elgar's wonderful chamber works are no particular help, it seems to me, since Berlioz hardly wrote any chamber music.

Elgar's symphonies are surprisingly 'conservative' in overall design, especially compared to the five Berlioz works which the latter considered his own symphonies.  And rhetorically, the tow composers inhabit different worlds.  These concerns are not a matter of orchestration directly, but the orchestration is intimately connected.

The only concerted work of Berlioz, Harold en Italie, does not sustain ready comparison to either the Violin or Cello Concerto of Elgar.

So perhaps the angle at which we might best compare and contrast the orchestration techniques of the two composers, would be the oratorios, L'enfance du Christ and The Dream of Gerontius.  Even here, meseems that we find two composers on two different planets.

Parenthetically, Elgar's symphonies are still eluding me somewhat, but I give them time.  No hurry.

[BachQ]

Maybe it is a bit repetitive...hmmm, sounds okay to me. I'm weird  .

Hey, if YOU enjoy it, that's the important thing!  I don't want to be your killjoy . . . . . . even if it means that you're wasting your time listening to crap!      

[karlhenning]

Well, there's repetition in most muscial works, but I do have some problems with the amount of it in the 1st Movement.  About twice a year, I tackle that movement again; I'm not convinced that I can't appreciate it much more than I currently do.

That's more or less where I am with the two symphonies, generally.  I am hoping that the Tate/LSO recording may adjust that.

[BachQ]

The only concerted work of Berlioz, Harold en Italie, does not sustain ready comparison to either the Violin or Cello Concerto of Elgar.

I'm not sure that Harold en Italie sustains ready comparison to ANY work by ANY composer . . . . . . .

[Haffner]

Parenthetically, Elgar's symphonies are still eluding me somewhat, but I give them time.  No hurry.

The time pays off. Excellent post, maestro Karl!

[Harry]

I find, and sorry I dance out of line, them absolutely wonderful, and what's more his Symphonies played under the baton of Solti, are fast and invigorating. I find no fault at them, and don't think them old fashioned. They are full of good melodies, and are well written to my ears.
The first movement does not strike me as repetitive, or to long. As to the rest of his works, I find myself equally Elgar friendly, but I have to admit, that his vocal works are not my cup of tea alltogether.

[Don]

You are mistaken.  I don't believe Blom is in any position to be humiliated by this thread, even if that were its theme.

71 dB, not Blom.

[karlhenning]

I find, and sorry I dance out of line, them absolutely wonderful, and what's more his Symphonies played under the baton of Solti, are fast and invigorating. I find no fault at them, and don't think them old fashioned. They are full of good melodies, and are well written to my ears.
The first movement does not strike me as repetitive, or to long. As to the rest of his works, I find myself equally Elgar friendly, but I have to admit, that his vocal works are not my cup of tea alltogether.

Why, you are always welcome to the dance, and you are never out of turn, Harry.

All I really meant by calling Elgar's symphonies 'conservative in design,' is that where Berlioz (in particular) took Beethoven's Opus 125 as an invitation to composers to reimagine what The Symphony could be, later symphonists such as (in especial) Brahms and Elgar seemed perfectly happy to let the symphony be a four-movement affair, for orchestra alone (and perhaps not the largest of orchestras, either).

[71 dB]

[Had to move this from another thread where it just Did Not Belong]

(1)  I have heard several works of both composers, a collective duration of at least twenty hours of music.  That puts me in a much better position to judge than you, wouldn't you think?  My only "disadvantage" is, that I do not labor under the overwhelming need to praise Elgar, at any cost to facts and to the truth.

(2)  All right:  so which one of Berlioz's works have you heard? 

(3)  Now, demonstrate your musical expertise, already:  write us four paragraphs, with musical references, detailing the similarities between the two composers.

Come now, according to you it is easy;  you only need to know one piece by each composer.

(1) Okay, you are superior to me so I better stop listening to music and die away...

(2) L'Enfance du Christ, Tristia, Harold in Italy, Symphonie fantastique. That's 4.

(3) I believe there are plenty of this in ELGAR O.M. by Percy Young. However, I read it years ago. The similarities are about efective use of instruments. I haven't studied music theory much, I listen to music and recognice musical structures as they are without trying to name them. A person can see the similarities and differencies between the windows of two buildings without studying architecture.

I respect both Elgar and Berlioz as composers. I should explore Berlioz more and I will.

[karlhenning]

(2) L'Enfance du Christ, Tristia, Harold in Italy, Symphonie fantastique. That's 4.

And how do any of these pieces relate to Elgar's orchestration, please?

[karlhenning]

(3) I believe there are plenty of this in ELGAR O.M. by Percy Young. However, I read it years ago. The similarities are about efective use of instruments.

Well, both Berlioz and Elgar make effective use of instruments, no argument.  My point, 71 dB, is that if a dozen composers make effective use of instruments, it does not specifically link their work to Berlioz's.  I think that there are much closer instrumentation affinities between Berlioz (and Mendelssohn) and Tchaikovsky, for instance, than anything to connect Elgar's work to Berlioz.

I haven't studied music theory much, I listen to music and recognice musical structures as they are without trying to name them. A person can see the similarities and differencies between the windows of two buildings without studying architecture.

I think the differences between the two composers are much greater than the similarities (which is why I called Blom's remark a Real Turkey).

And a person who can see the similarities and differencies between the windows of two buildings without studying architecture, can describe and discuss those differences;  not as an architect might, but still with some perception and intelligence.