The Art of Wilhelm Furtwängler

[Renfield]

Slightly OT: Any idea why he didn't want Karajan to succeed him?

His problem wasn't with succession, he knew Karajan would succeed him. His problem was Karajan superseding him while he was still around, exactly because he understood Karajan's ability. Insecurity is an all too human trait, even if you're Wilhelm Furtwängler.

[Martin Lind]

I had already a Furtwängler Maestro classico box ( 10 CDs), of which I liked most Bruckners 9th. But these are old recordings. Some time later I met a person who was member of the Furtwängler society. He gave me some Furtwängler recordings as a present and I was very gratefull. Most important for me was then a recording of Brahms 3rd from 1953. First of all this recording has very acceptable sound - which is not unimportant for me. But as an interpretation this is really great. It has flexible tempi in a very convincing way. I like for example also Jochum playing Bruckners 7th with similar flexible tempi. Brahms 3rd with Furtwängler was then completely refreshing, it was as if listening to this music for the first time.

[jwinter]

If it's not too much trouble, could someone direct me or link to a good source for the Melodiya or Opus Kura issues for the US, specifically for the stuff from the M&A WWII Beethoven set?  I see several Melodiya Furtwangler Beethoven CDs on Amazon, but they're OOP and I'm not seeing performance info.

Thanks!

FYI, I just ordered this from Tower.com -- good price, and I verified at another site that this is indeed the VPO December 1944 Eroica, as in the M&A set.  I'll try to post some impressions on the transfers when it arrives...

[MishaK]

His problem wasn't with succession, he knew Karajan would succeed him. His problem was Karajan superseding him while he was still around, exactly because he understood Karajan's ability. Insecurity is an all too human trait, even if you're Wilhelm Furtwängler.

It's not as simple as mere insecurity. Furtwängler also vastly disagreed with the stylistic shift towards a slick objectivism that Karajan represented. By contrast Furtwängler effusievly praised conductors who came from the same interpretive line of thought as he did, such as Carl Schuricht.

[Lilas Pastia]

JUST saw this thread... Although I can't claim to have listened to all, or even a quarter of all available Furtwängler recordings, I can readily attest my favourites are the 1943 Vienna Eroica and 15.04.1949 Berlin Bruckner 8 (the Titania Palast one, not the rehearsal of the day before).

Confession: I didn't read all the pages of this thread either .

[rubio]

15.04.1949 Berlin Bruckner 8 (the Titania Palast one, not the rehearsal of the day before).

Does there exist any OK remastering of this Bruckner 8?

[Peregrine]

I'm following this discussion over transfers with much interest as I have owned the M&A set for some time. Interestingly (FWIW), a review on Amazon alludes to problems with the Opus Kura transfer on this particular release:

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-No-9-Choral/dp/B000777ISI/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1233734435&sr=1-4

[Renfield]

It's not as simple as mere insecurity. Furtwängler also vastly disagreed with the stylistic shift towards a slick objectivism that Karajan represented. By contrast Furtwängler effusievly praised conductors who came from the same interpretive line of thought as he did, such as Carl Schuricht.

Is that on record?

I'm asking because Furtwängler's stylistic influence on Karajan's conducting* is quite strong.

(Though less so in the years the two coincided, admittedly.)


*Together with Toscanini's, of course. I seem to vaguely remember Karajan himself mentioning them in the same breath as conductors he admired, but I can't offer a source, at present.


Edit: Welcome aboard, Lilas! Is the 8th you speak of not the one also on Testament, or am I getting my dates mixed up?

[Lilas Pastia]

There are two Furtwängler 8ths from April 1949. On the 14th they played a for a radio broadcast. It may have also been intended as a 'dress rehearsal' for the following day's concert. This was done in the Gemeindhaus, Berlin and the recording is issued on Testament. The April 15th concert was done at the Titania Palast. The differences between the two interpretations are nicely detailed in the Testament liner notes. Basically the concert finds the musicians practically on fire, wheras the studio (Gemeindhaus) performance is slightly more settled (but still remarkable). Also, the sound from the Titania Palast is better. I have the Arkadia release and have no idea if it's an 'ok' remastering. Obviously allowances have to be made for the sound - after all it's 60 years old - as well as for the audience "participation". I wonder if there mas much heating in Germany at the time.

[Renfield]

There are two Furtwängler 8ths from April 1949. On the 14th they played a for a radio broadcast. It may have also been intended as a 'dress rehearsal' for the following day's concert. This was done in the Gemeindhaus, Berlin and the recording is issued on Testament. The April 15th concert was done at the Titania Palast. The differences between the two interpretations are nicely detailed in the Testament liner notes. Basically the concert finds the musicians practically on fire, wheras the studio (Gemeindhaus) performance is slightly more settled (but still remarkable). Also, the sound from the Titania Palast is better. I have the Arkadia release and have no idea if it's an 'ok' remastering. Obviously allowances have to be made for the sound - after all it's 60 years old - as well as for the audience "participation". I wonder if there mas much heating in Germany at the time.

I see. Thanks for that tidbit; I'll keep an eye out for the "concert" 1949. Speaking of "fire", there's also a war-time BPO 8th that I've been trying to track down for some time. But even with just the quite awe-inspiring 1944 VPO 8th, I'm quite covered.

[Que]

I'm following this discussion over transfers with much interest as I have owned the M&A set for some time. Interestingly (FWIW), a review on Amazon alludes to problems with the Opus Kura transfer on this particular release:

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-No-9-Choral/dp/B000777ISI/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1233734435&sr=1-4

The problems mentioned - wavering in pitch and overload in loud passages - are in the original recording.

Note the 2nd comment: Before discussing the performance, I should like to say that no other issue of this performance has the fullness of sound as this Opus Kura transfer, made, I understand, from Melodiya LP sources, which derive from the original RRG tapes. There is still some distortion in the First Movement, but it is much reduced and the sound has an absence of shrillness quite unlike other transfers.

I do not have the Opus Kura issue of the LvB 9th from '42, but the Melodiya issue, which I can recommend. At least it is recommendable to my standards, if you're looking for smooth - this is not it. My earlier comments on the Melodiya transfer are to be found HERE.

Q

[Peregrine]

The problems mentioned - wavering in pitch and overload in loud passages - are in the original recording.

Note the 2nd comment: Before discussing the performance, I should like to say that no other issue of this performance has the fullness of sound as this Opus Kura transfer, made, I understand, from Melodiya LP sources, which derive from the original RRG tapes. There is still some distortion in the First Movement, but it is much reduced and the sound has an absence of shrillness quite unlike other transfers.

I do not have the Opus Kura issue of the LvB 9th from '42, but the Melodiya issue, which I can recommend. At least it is recommendable to my standards, if you're looking for smooth - this is not it. My earlier comments on the Melodiya transfer are to be found HERE.


Q

Cheers, Que. I notice it mentions all this in the notes to the M&A release - the pitch problems with the originals, should have checked!

[jwinter]

I bought this thinking that it was the same Eroica as in the Music & Arts WWII set.  The sound is greatly improved over Music & Arts, as good as some of his later Beethoven released on EMI.  I now need to comparatively listen and verify that it's the same performance, though.  The Music & Arts is listed as Dec 20 1944, while the Melodiya is listed as Dec 16 1944.  The timings are close, but there are differences of around 10 - 20 seconds in each movement -- could be slight variations in the tape speed or editing I suppose.  Anybody know for sure if there's more than one Furtwangler Vienna Dec 1944 Eroica?  Don't suppose the Melodiya is a tape of a rehearsal?

[Que]

I bought this thinking that it was the same Eroica as in the Music & Arts WWII set.  The sound is greatly improved over Music & Arts, as good as some of his later Beethoven released on EMI.  I now need to comparatively listen and verify that it's the same performance, though.  The Music & Arts is listed as Dec 20 1944, while the Melodiya is listed as Dec 16 1944.  The timings are close, but there are differences of around 10 - 20 seconds in each movement -- could be slight variations in the tape speed or editing I suppose.  Anybody know for sure if there's more than one Furtwangler Vienna Dec 1944 Eroica?  Don't suppose the Melodiya is a tape of a rehearsal?

There is only one '44 Eroïca as far as I know. John Ardoin dates it in his "The Furtwängler Record" as recorded on 19 and 20 december.

Opus Kura notes incorrect pitch in the original tapes - higher, so shorter timings. Maybe that explains the difference in timings.

Q

[George]

Anybody know for sure if there's more than one Furtwangler Vienna Dec 1944 Eroica?  Don't suppose the Melodiya is a tape of a rehearsal?

Youngrok Lee's Discography of Furtwangler agrees with what Que said above (they list only one 1944 recording of the Eroica):

Symphony No.3 in E flat major, op.55, 'Eroica'
1) 19th(or 16~20th) Dec. 1944, Musikvereinsaal, Wien
   * with  Wiener Philharmoniker
   * CD ; Tahra FURT 1031 / FURT 1034~39(6 set) / FURT 1060~62(3 set), Preiser PRCD 90251, Toshiba CE28 5746 / TOCE 8518 / TOCE 3730, Music and Arts CD 814 / CD 942(5 set) / CD 4049(4 set), Melodiya MEL 10 00710 / MEL 10 01106, Russian CD RCD 25001, Documents LV 919.20, Priceless D 16395, Bayer DaCapo BR 200002, Historical Performers (JP) HP 2, Grand Slam GS 2005(JP), Green Door Publishing GDCL 0001(JP), Delta DCCA 0029(JP), Aura Classics AUR 262(misdated 31st Aug. Notes ] Original Melodiya, Turnabout and Documents editions incorrectly name orchestra as BPO Notes by Y.Lee ] Grand Slam & Delta release is transferred from Urania C 7095(LP). The date in M&A 4049 19 & 20th. RCD 25004, Melodiya MEL 10 00713, Music and Arts CD 824 / CD 4049(4 set), Green Door Musical Publishing GDWF 2001(JP), Opus Kura OPK 7002

[jwinter]

Thanks for that info, guys.  I have to say, I'm quite surprised by how good this sounds.  Melodiya's source much have been in much better shape. 

[Que]

Thanks for that info, guys.  I have to say, I'm quite surprised by how good this sounds.  Melodiya's source much have been in much better shape. 

German sound engineering at the time, pioneering with taped recordings, was incredibly advanced. So the war-time recordings actually were of superb quality, with the notable exception of the '42 LvB 9th.
Unfortunately with the decay of the magnetic tapes much of this quality was lost. My conclusion is that taking the recordings from sources that were taken from the original tapes when they were still in good condition - Melodiya LP's or early tape copies - delivers the best result. The original tapes, later copies or umptieth generation copies (copies from copies), used by DG and M&A for example, fall short. Though Tahra also used the original tapes (I have that set) and really made the most of it - a result I could have lived with were it not for the better options available on Opus Kura and Melodiya. The problem is that the Bruckner 9th hasn't surfaced yet... My hopes are on Opus Kura.

Q

[Bogey]

Has this set that has a May 5th release date been mentioned yet?



LEGENDARY RECORDINGS: Quality feature 1st Master Release - Live in Berlin (1947 - 1954) The production is part of our series "Legendary Recordings"and bears the quality feature "1st Master Release". This term stands for the excellent quality of archival productions at audite. For all historical publications at audite are based, without exception, on the original tapes from broadcasting archives. In general these are the original analogue tapes, which attain an astonishingly high quality, even measured by today's standards, with their tape speed of up to 76 cm/sec. The remastering - professionally competent and sensitively applied - also uncovers previously hidden details of the interpretations. Thus, a sound of superior quality results. CD publications based on private recordings from broadcasts or old shellac records cannot be compared with these. The majority of the concerts given by Wilhelm Furtwängler and the Berlin Philharmonic between 1947 and 1954 were recorded by the RIAS Berlin; all of these recordings are documented in this boxed set. The original tapes from the RIAS archives have been made available for the fi rst time for this edition so these CDs also offer unsurpassed technical quality. Furthermore, some of the recordings are presented for the very first time, such as the Fortner Violin Concerto with Gerhard Taschner. These RIAS recordings are documents of historical value: they contain a major part of Furtwängler's late oeuvre as a conductor, which was characterized by a high level of focus in different respects. Focus on repertoire which has at its core the symphonic works of Beethoven, Brahms and Bruckner and is supplemented by works by Bach and Handel and also by topical composers of the time, including Hindemith, Blacher and Fortner: artists who were counted amongst the members of "moderate modernism" and who were not perceived to have been tainted by the cultural politics of the National Socialists. Focus was also a guiding principle in Furtwängler's concert programmes which always feature a particular idea. His interpretations also demonstrate extremely high levels of focus: concentration and focus for him meant a contemporary decoding, a re-creation, which would express the fundamental content of a work. A number of works - the Third, Fifth and Sixth Symphonies by Ludwig van Beethoven as well as Johannes Brahms' Third Symphony - are included in two interpretations. They reveal how Furtwängler was able to accentuate different aspects of a work whilst maintaining the same, clear basic conception - and how the actual interpretation depended on the context of the particular programme.

Includes a recording of composer Werner Egk and his students interviewing Furtwängler.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?ordertag=Condrecom4103-215447&album_id=220926

And anyone here familiar with the Audite label?

[Renfield]

Audite is a very good label indeed; Kubelik's excellent live Mahler recordings are on it, as are some recent exclusive Karajan releases.

In fact, I'd seen the above release in their site, but I wasn't sure about their sources.

However, the above information means I am definitely getting my hands on that set - many thanks!

[Bogey]

Audite is a very good label indeed; Kubelik's excellent live Mahler recordings are on it, as are some recent exclusive Karajan releases.

In fact, I'd seen the above release in their site, but I wasn't sure about their sources.

However, the above information means I am definitely getting my hands on that set - many thanks!

You are welcome.  About time a lent a hand to someone here as I always seem to be on the receiving end.