What is "quality music"?

[Franco]

I suppose soon someone will claim that Porgy & Bess is no Le Nozze di Figaro, despite the incontrovertable fact that Gershwin wrote, "I Loves You Porgy" and Mozart wrote "Porgi, amor".

Now, to my ears at least, that comes pretty close.

[DavidRoss]

Franco, you are indeed a welcome addition to this joyful nuthouse! 

[karlhenning]

James should make "aesthetic value cogency" a trademark phrase.

Did I sense some fields a-vibrating?

[Franco]

Franco, you are indeed a welcome addition to this joyful nuthouse! 

[DavidRoss]

You are, go ahead then, just list the best quality pop, rock or jazz that comes close? I would love to be proved wrong.

If you go to the "Non-Classical Listening Thread" you will find many such items described which various GMGers enjoy on their own terms just as they enjoy various forms of "classical" music on their terms.

You don't seriously believe that taste is amenable to proof, do you?

As for the claim that you would "love to be proved wrong"--that is belied by virtually every post you make, none of which indicates a mind open even the teensiest bit to considering the possible validity of any point of view but your own.

[nut-job]

For a high fi buff system (me), I prefer high-conciousness  music.

----

And karl, what I have been saying is not misguided and you didn't address my question head-on producing anything as an example to see where you're coming from, just a lot of hot air.....and there are other people (some who I deeply respect) who happen to share the very same perspective as I do. Granted, different social, spiritual & intellectual uses of music are valued within their context. But this doesn't change the obvious & simple point that aesthetic value cogency is the measure of quality and is used to compare All Musics, regardless of idiom.

You seem to have a penchant for puffing up your opinions as pseudo-facts.  What does the statement that other people who you respect agree with you add to the argument?  It is clear that you don't respect people who fail to agree with you.

To compare a Bob Dylan song to a Beethoven symphony is clearly silly, one is a work of small scope, the other of much larger scope.  The pieces can only be judged with respect to the constraints of their respective form.  It would be equally ridiculous to say that a Beethoven symphony is superior to a Bach fugue.  Furthermore, a song by Dylan is a composite work, in which literary and musical elements come together in a unique way.  The Dylan work is also essentially presented as an audio recording, in which the details of the individual performance are part of the work.  

Listening to one of Dylan's finer efforts, such as "Don't Think Twice, It's Alright" is not unlike listening to a small gem such as a Chopin Nocturne.  I can savor the subtle shades of sarcasm and resentment that Dylan portrays in the lyrics, the melody and harmony, the inflections of his voice and guitar.  It is not unlike savoring the nuances of harmonization and chromatic ornamentation of a melody in a Chopin Nocturne.   If forced to compare "Don't Think Twice, It's Alright" to Beethoven's ninth symphony, I judge Dylan superior, since his is one of the finest folk songs every performed and Beethoven's ninth is a grotesque hodgepodge, with a finale that Beethoven himself wanted to replace,  and would have if he hadn't drunk himself into an early grave.

[karlhenning]

You don't seriously believe that taste is amenable to proof, do you?

As for the claim that you would "love to be proved wrong"--that is belied by virtually every post you make, none of which indicates a mind open even the teensiest bit to considering the possible validity of any point of view but your own.

That's exactly why this whole "go ahead and show me"/"I would love to be proved wrong" gambit is so tidy and circular!

My mind is made up: Don't confuse me with the facts.

[Franco]

thx david, i post things in that thread too, but i was asking karl to provide something for us to listen to that is on the level that approaches the sort-of depth, complexity, subtlety, innovation, richness etc. that one can find in the very best of the western art music tradition.

As if that is the point of Pop/Rock music. 

To turn your logic against you, please provide me with an example from the best of the western art music tradition that approaches the lyrical colloquial aptness, rhythmic infectiousness, melodic catchiness and bittersweet harmonic setting, all done with economy of materials and within the confines of a three minute short story that adds up to the musical conjuring of a teenager's first experience of love, as is regularly found in the best of the popular music canon.

[nut-job]

but i was asking karl to provide something for us to listen to that is on the level that approaches the sort-of depth, complexity, subtlety, innovation, richness etc. that one can find in the very best of the western art music tradition.

...after which you will announce that it is not nearly as deep, complex, subtle, innovative and rich as whatever music you think is best.  This is know as "proof by incredulity."  It is the main innovation of the creationists, and is very useful because it allows you to prove that anything you don't understand is wrong.

[aquablob]

one of Dylan's finer efforts[:] . . . "Don't Think Twice, It's Alright"

Yes, this is perhaps my favorite of all Dylan songs!

Beethoven's ninth is a grotesque hodgepodge

Respectfully disagree!

[karlhenning]

...after which you will announce that it is not nearly as deep, complex, subtle, innovative and rich as whatever music you think is best.  This is know as "proof by incredulity."  It is the main innovation of the creationists, and is very useful because it allows you to prove that anything you don't understand is wrong.

Ah, I see you've met James!

[karlhenning]

I've heard and own lots of it that's why, and I would love to hear something that is comparable. It would be a wonderful surprise.

And a neighbor on this very forum has heard lots of 20th century music (that's why), and he "would love" to hear something that's comparable to a small handful of pieces by a certain French composer.  He would find it a wonderful surprise.

One of these days, James, you're going to wake up to the fact that this game of yours is a sham (as demonstrated by the parallel example, above).  And we'll rib you a little bit over it, and life will go on.

[nut-job]

Examples karl, need those examples...backup what you're saying. Still nothing.

I already gave you one.

[DavidRoss]

I love jazz, but even the very best of that doesn't really approach...

The post quoted below, like those you've made on this thread, does not really sound like the informed opinion of a jazz "lover," but rather like the close-minded and uninformed ranting of one whose hostile prejudices prevent appreciation of the form.

jazz is a form of popular music imo, mainly dabblers....it often uses simple song forms based on legacy changes (yawn), most of it features junk composition and indulgent pointless homophonic block chord fumbling (i.e. Keith Jarrett). it's musical backwater and the players just seem to be in it for themselves. it is very narrow musically speaking compared to the art music tradition, then again it's been around for a lot less too. jazzers are typically very tribalistic and narrow i have found. little do they realize that there is more music to be heard elsewhere...i hear more music in 3 bars of good writing then 30,000 bars of meandering self absorbed noodling that jazz often presents...

for me, popular music is good for a blast of joy or an adrenalin rush but that's about the full extent of it...its nowhere near as rich and profound as the art music tradition. most serious artists found in popular music (including jazz) stand in awe of classical music and would be very ill at ease trying to play it, and the ones that have tried can attest to this.

As for your last statement, the same can be said of classical performers who try to play jazz.

Whether you think so or not, jazz is universally appreciated as a serious form of art music celebrating the spontaneous, improvisational interplay of creative performers.  The goals and methods of jazz are so far removed from those of the European tradition of "classical" art music that no one with a shred of intellectual integrity would attempt to judge them by the same criteria.  And while I do not hold popular music in the same general high regard, I nonetheless agree completely with Franco's observation regarding "the lyrical colloquial aptness, rhythmic infectiousness, melodic catchiness and bittersweet harmonic setting, all done with economy of materials and within the confines of a three minute short story that adds up to the musical conjuring of a teenager's first experience of love...regularly found in the best of the popular music canon," as well as with nut-job's comments about Bob Dylan--the best of whose work may indeed compare favorably with songs in the classical canon.

I am not wholly ignorant of classical music, nor unappreciative of its virtues...yet when it comes to pure song, I don't think there's a thing Schubert wrote that holds a candle to Leonard Cohen's Famous Blue Raincoat.  That's a matter of personal taste and preference, and I don't give a damn whether you share or approve of it.

And now for some terrific art music in a popular idiom:  The Talking Heads, Fear of Music

[karlhenning]

And now for some terrific art music in a popular idiom:  The Talking Heads, Fear of Music

This thread ain't no party. Nor is it a disco . . . .

[aquablob]

Whether you think so or not, jazz is universally appreciated as a serious form of art music celebrating the spontaneous, improvisational interplay of creative performers.  The goals and methods of jazz are so far removed from those of the European tradition of "classical" art music that no one with a shred of intellectual integrity would attempt to judge them by the same criteria.  And while I do not hold popular music in the same general high regard, I nonetheless agree completely with Franco's observation regarding "the lyrical colloquial aptness, rhythmic infectiousness, melodic catchiness and bittersweet harmonic setting, all done with economy of materials and within the confines of a three minute short story that adds up to the musical conjuring of a teenager's first experience of love...regularly found in the best of the popular music canon," as well as with nut-job's comments about Bob Dylan--the best of whose work may indeed compare favorably with songs in the classical canon.

I am not wholly ignorant of classical music, nor unappreciative of its virtues...yet when it comes to pure song, I don't think there's a thing Schubert wrote that holds a candle to Leonard Cohen's Famous Blue Raincoat.  That's a matter of personal taste and preference, and I don't give a damn whether you share or approve of it.

And now for some terrific art music in a popular idiom:  The Talking Heads, Fear of Music

DR: Stop Making Sense! Actually, there's no need to stop. (Though I must add that I hold Schubert's songs in high esteem; 'tis, as you say, a matter of taste.)

[nut-job]

well hours have past i checked this thread in anticipation of some good stuff i should be checking out but instead it's just the same ol' 4th rate shit. and karl, until you can come up with even just one single example illustrating your point your words have absolutely no weight in my books...

But you ignore examples by everyone else.  Do you think you have any weight in anyone's book but your own?

[Jaxamillian]

Well, I've read about half of the replies, so I will just post my personal opinion.

It seems like the thread became pop vs classical.

I actually would say that even the best pop music is "lesser quality" than the work of Beethoven, Wagner..these guys were absolute masters of the craft and geniuses.  Bred to do it from childhood and immersed in the culture.  The large scale statements they made, how they manage to create perfect little worlds within a piece(especially LVB), is something that I haven't seen pop music achieve.

For me, pop music is a little condensed piece of musical sweetness.  It's like looking at a nice pretty photograph as compared to watching a long movie with a complex, interweaving story (classical).  Or sitting down to a nice 4 course meal as opposed to eating a Snickers bar.

Sometimes you just need to eat some sweets.  Just the same, sometimes you need more substantial meals.

Just like what you like and let others like what they like; it doesn't matter at all.

[DavidRoss]

still nothing of merit provided from our in-house composer, as expected. so what i said & believe to be true based on countless hours of listening, reflection etc. still stands completely unrefuted.

Well, this statement makes you a leading contender for most delusional contributor to this forum...in a crowded field, by the way. 

[Bulldog]

About every two weeks, I go to Pandora to get my rock fix of the late 1960's to early 1970's.  Is it as good as Bach, Schumann or Shostakovich?  Don't know, don't care.  It hits the right spot.