Gurn's Classical Corner

[karlhenning]

Great answer, Gurn!  Are you sure you're not secretly a prominent Austrian musicologist??? 

I have wondered that same thing for some time now. 

Call him Gön 

[bhodges]

Call him Gön 

[slaps forehead]

But of course!

--Bruce

[Gurn Blanston]

Great answer, Gurn!  Are you sure you're not secretly a prominent Austrian musicologist??? 

Particularly interesting regarding the Haydn concerto... I have only heard this performed on harpsichord.  Do you happen to know of any recordings of it on fortepiano?  Or maybe of Mozart's early concerti on harpsichord?  Might be interesting! 

This one might be worth a go. I have been thinking about it for a while:

.

Brautigam does a good Haydn, at least in the solo works. And this one is well reviewed, hard to go wrong. Staier also does it with Freiburg Baroque Orchestra, not heard that one either. My bad. My very, very bad...

No, I'm secretly a chubby little old man with an unfortunate addiction to reading...

[Gurn Blanston]

Call him Gön 

Hmm, Karl, that mystery man in your avatar looks rather like a famous Austrian musicologist. Could it be? 

[karlhenning]

Ach! Nein! (in Ron Vibbentrop voice)

[Sorin Eushayson]

...not heard that one either. My bad. My very, very bad...

Don't be so hard on yourself - not even the great and mysterious Gurn can have heard every Haydn recording out there! 

No samples out there for Brautigam's, but Staier's has some up...

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Concerti-per-il-clavicembalo/dp/B0011B6JAC/ref=dm_cd_album_lnk?ie=UTF8&qid=1236795322&sr=1-1

[Gurn Blanston]

Don't be so hard on yourself - not even the great and mysterious Gurn can have heard every Haydn recording out there! 

No samples out there for Brautigam's, but Staier's has some up...

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Concerti-per-il-clavicembalo/dp/B0011B6JAC/ref=dm_cd_album_lnk?ie=UTF8&qid=1236795322&sr=1-1

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain..." 

Here is the Brautigam. If you click that tiny arrow at the beginning of the track description, I believe it will play a sample. BTW, this is a great download site I buy from them whenever they have what I am looking for... Hey, just sayin'...

http://www.eclassical.com/eclassic/eclassical?&last_page=bengt&performer=Brautigam%2c+Ronald&page=record_list&cd_nr=BIS1318&performer_id=205

[bhodges]

PS, slightly off-topic, but I have Brautigam in Shostakovich's piano concertos, and he's superb in those. 

--Bruce

[prémont]

What's the proper keyboard instrument for classical sonatas?

Always a point of contention among period instrument enthusiasts. Just like with nearly everything else to do with music, there is no hard and fast date when a transition took place. Music that was unquestionably written for the fortepiano exists from as early as 1765. Boccherini (a string man, of all people!) was the first to publish accompanied sonatas that stated on the cover page "6 Sonatas for Fortepiano & Violin - Op V" in Paris in 1767. It goes without saying that he was trying to impress a lady (the dedicatee was a prominent fortepianist in the City). And also in Paris, Johann Eckard arrived a few years earlier (1761) as a fortepiano salesman for Steiner and wrote a series of sonatas for the fortepiano. However, that doesn't mean that the day of the clavicembalo (harpsichord) was over. Obviously, not everyone could afford to immediately throw out their old instruments and buy new. So in the interest of selling sheet music, publishers continued even into Beethoven's time to put on the front "For the Pianoforte or Harpsichord". However, it isn't as difficult as all that to tell what was what. A dead giveaway was the use of dynamic markings, especially crescendos and decrescendos, but also pp and fff and the like. Why a giveaway? Well, harpsichords couldn't follow those markings. They played in virtually the same dynamic all the time because they relied on plucking of the strings. It's true that different registers could produce different volume levels, but that doesn't help much with a big, arpeggiated crescendo!

It is thought that Mozart first encountered a fortepiano in <>1772, and probably had one in his hands by 1775. So that date is used (albeit tentatively) for Mozart's music, anyway. Any keyboard music post 1775 is probably piano music. Other composers are not so well documented, so it takes reading the original score (publishers added the markings later on, so only the original will do) to find the dynamics. A bit more difficult.

Oh, and let's not overlook the fact that many, many composers spent the long evenings in their rooms with the clavichord, and a lot of solo works are written just for it. If you haven't heard a clavichord, it's way past time...

Great post Gurn, the ambiguities in this topic could not be stated more precisely.

[nut-job]

Gurn,

I assume you are familiar with this series?



I've been listening recently, these works are engaging, if not on the level of the very best.  Listenin to music like this gives you an idea of what elements in Beethoven were truly revolutionary and what were in line with his contemporaries.  Contrasting one of the presto finales of Beck with the finale of Beethoven's 7th is instructive.

[Sorin Eushayson]

...this is a great download site I buy from them whenever they have what I am looking for... Hey, just sayin'...

I've bought from eClassical every now and then: high-quality files for cheap!  What more can one ask for???

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn,

I assume you are familiar with this series?



I've been listening recently, these works are engaging, if not on the level of the very best.  Listenin to music like this gives you an idea of what elements in Beethoven were truly revolutionary and what were in line with his contemporaries.  Contrasting one of the presto finales of Beck with the finale of Beethoven's 7th is instructive.

Yes. I am really quite fond of Beck, and his name doesn't come up often even among people who enjoy obscure composers, and for no good reason. I have the Naxos Op 1 disk, and the cpo Op 3 & 4 pairs. Beck was a Mannheimer, and one of the best, IMO. Among other novelties in his work, he was the first (IIRC) to use trombones in one of his symphonies. Here is a bio from Answers.com for anyone interested. Note their comments on his music; I agree with all of this. Very interesting!

Franz Ignaz Beck

    * Country: Germany
    * Born: February 20, 1734 in Mannheim, Germany
    * Died: December 31, 1809 in Bordeaux, France

Biography
German composer Franz Ignaz Beck is a controversial exception to almost all of the standard rules regarding eighteenth century musicianship. Born in Mannheim and educated by Johann Stamitz, Beck's orchestral music retains the technical know how expected from a student of Stamitz, but otherwise his stormy and stylistically fearless symphonies show no resemblance to what one normally associates with the "Mannheim School." Standard references show Beck, initially nurtured under the patronage of Elector Carl Theodor, as traveling from the Mannheim court to study with Galuppi. However, the reminiscences of one of Beck's students reveal the composer fled Mannheim after believing he'd killed a man in a duel -- the victim turned up, decades later, alive and well at Beck's door. Although Beck's symphonies begin to appear toward the end of his Italian period, little is known of his time in Italy other than that he spent much of it in Venice and later Naples, where in 1760 Beck was forced once again to flee to Marseilles after secretly engaging his patron's daughter in marriage.

The rest of Beck's life was centered in France, residing in Bordeaux and traveling to Paris on occasion to perform and publish his works, which were known throughout Europe. In addition to the symphonies, apparently all produced between 1757 and 1762, Beck was renowned for his solo keyboard music and abilities as an improviser on the organ, and he held for a time post of organist at Cathèdrale St. Seurin in Bordeaux. None of Beck's organ music survives; likewise, most of the operas and ballets he composed for the Grand Théâtre in Bordeaux have disappeared. The calculable triumphs of Beck's later years include his superb setting of the Stabat Mater (Paris, 1783) and his Hymne à l'être Suprème, a Revolutionary-era barn-burner that earned him appointment to the Instituit de France, a professorship Beck held until his death at age 75 on the last day of 1809.

Franz Ignaz Beck is an almost exact contemporary of Franz Josef Haydn, but his symphonies are strikingly advanced for their time. Beck was already utilizing four-movement structures by 1760, and his symphonies are rich with the violent contrasts and explosive effects associated with the Stürm und Drang phase found in Haydn's middle symphonies and those of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach. Nevertheless, Beck's work was completely forgotten until published studies on his work were put forward by musicologists Hugo Riemann in the early 1900s and Robert Sondheimer in the 1920s. Although Sondheimer made the strongest case to restore Beck to the active repertoire, he also made claims on behalf of Beck that went a little too far, awarding Beck developments in Western orchestral music that clearly belong to Beethoven. Sondheimer's editions of Beck's symphonies, published in the 1950s, are heavily edited, even to the extent of adding parts not in the original scores. Artaria Editions of Hong Kong has published authoritative and accurate editions of Beck's symphonies since the 1990s, yet there remains some dispute about their total number. Grove's gives the number of Beck symphonies conservatively at 19, but by of the end of 2006 Artaria had published 27 symphonies under his name with presumably more to follow; some held in manuscript sources are believed inauthentic. ~ Uncle Dave Lewis, All Music Guide

Try it and see.

[Gurn Blanston]

Great post Gurn, the ambiguities in this topic could not be stated more precisely.

Thank you, premont. I agree with you on that. It is precisely the ambiguities which got me interested in this topic a few years ago. At this point, and with our current level of knowledge, there are no absolutes...

[Gurn Blanston]

PS, slightly off-topic, but I have Brautigam in Shostakovich's piano concertos, and he's superb in those. 

--Bruce

Bruce,
Well, slightly OT, yes, but as good a testament as any to Brautigam's pianistic talents. He is often classed with those loony fortepianists ( ) but he is indeed a fine player. Another of his modern piano ventures (although not modern music) is a very nice rendition of Mendelssohn's piano concertos.

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn - nice post above about keyboard instrumentation in this fascinating 18th century.  Of course, Cristofori HERE is credited w/ the invention of the piano, i.e. an instrument that could produce 'volume dynamics' unlike the harpsichord; this Italian instrument maker died in 1731, so the origins of his invention were in the early 18th century - thus, what is of real interest that no longer exists is the 'cornucopia' of keyboard instruments available to the composers of that century, and obviously the confusing issue for us now as to 'what' instrument the music was meant to played upon, if not one or several? 

Dave, sorry it took a while to get back to your post, but it was a bit longer and I couldn't type fast enough in my limited time this AM at work.   Yes, Cristofori did indeed invent the hammer piano, and IIRC it was <>1709-10. Clearly there was a lot of work to do to make it viable (like a good escapement to stop double striking, for example), but it was still the model for the future. Like all true revolutions though, it was very slow to gain acceptance. There were a few scattered around through Italy and Germany, but it was a long time before it took off. As I understand it, Sebastian Bach tried it and didn't like it a bit...

Each of these keyboard instruments, i.e. harpsichords, fortepianos, clavichords, et al, have their unique features and the music written was likely meant to be played on one or the other types of keyboards; my problem has been in obtaining this music is often related to the instruments used, the specific performers/performances, and the engineering of the recordings - I used to not like a lot of harpsichord music, but recent purchases have changed my mind; thus, one has to explore these various options - in the early 'classic' period, the harpsichord might be the best choice, if played & recorded well; as the 18th century progressed, a choice between the fortepiano & earlier instruments becomes an option (again, a personal decision often), and then into the latter part of that century, the fortepiano into more modern pianos seems to be the better option.

Well, oddball that I seem to be, harpsichords and I were love at first sight. I never truly appreciated Bach, for example, until I got his keyboard works on harpsichord. Now I won't listen to them on anything else. But getting back to cornucopias, let's not overlook another of my favorites, the tangent piano (Tangentenflügel). I have had a hard time finding information on this instrument, harder even than finding recordings played on it! But even though it seems most closely related to the clavichord, it was a piano. The surprising thing is that it sounds rather like a harpsichord! I will do some quick looking through my library and see what recordings I have, there are at least two of them. Anyway, the period of rapid expansion, just like the evolution of everything else (including man!) led down a few dead ends until the modern piano arose in <>1830, and it has scarcely changed a whit since then.

Not making a lot of sense here, I guess, but the point is that this was a dynamic evolution of keyboard instruments in the 18th century, and that composers may have written their music for a specific type of instrument but w/ the hope for more dynamics and a 'future' for a different type of performance or interpretation - 

I have often read that idea and pondered it. I find it hard to buy into "writing for the future", even with Beethoven. However, what I DO believe is that composers always pushed the envelope of the possible, and instrument makers accepted the challenge and constantly made the most of new ideas to accommodate the composers. It was co-evolution, and at different times, one or the other led the way, but overall they were always in a dead heat...

[SonicMan46]

   

I've been listening recently, these works are engaging, ......

Nut Job - looks like Gurn has already provided some intro material on Franz Beck (his dates relative to Haydn have always been intriguing, just 2 yrs off the birth date!); he is certainly worth exploring, and the CPO label has done a great job in recording his works - currently, I have the disc that you have shown, but have inserted 2 others on the CPO label that are worth a hearing, i.e. Op. 4, Nos. 1-3 Symphonies & the Op. 3, Nos. 3-5 Symphonies; of course, Naxos is also publishing some of his works - just have a single disc on that label so far!

BTW, I love the paintings of the cover art for the CPO CDs - the one above w/ the weird horse is from a search of the painter, Johann Heinrich Fussli, whose cover art is used on all of these illustracted discs - interesting and possibly a reflection of Beck's music?  Fussli was a Swiss painter who lived in the 18th century, so the art matches the period! - 

[Gabriel]

Great posts, thanks to everybody and particularly to Gurn. He seems to come directly from Clavierland!

[Gurn Blanston]

Great posts, thanks to everybody and particularly to Gurn. He seems to come directly from Clavierland!

  Don't you just love that quote from Mozart? As soon as i read it, I had to have it!

Letter to Leopold, June 1781 : "Here (Vienna),  is certainly the Land of the Piano"!  There was a lad with ambition. And vision.



----------------
Listening to:
Haydn Fortepiano Concertos - Concerto Copenhagen / Mortensen Brautigam (HIP) - Hob 18:02 Concerto in D for Keyboard and Orchestra 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

[SonicMan46]

Mozart, WA (1756-1791) - Symphonies w/ Mackerras & the Prague Cham Orch on Telarc - released as a 10-CD box at a fabulous price - just arrived the other day and starting my listening experience; I had 3 previous CDs of these works, but this is my first 'complete' set of the Mozart Symphonies; do own a number of different conductors in the latter half of Mozart's output in this repertoire - in fact, love this guy in a variety of different approaches.

So, my reason for posting is not to start a discussion of Mozart 'Symphony Sets' (we already have these threads), but to discuss several issues of Mozart's output in this genre:  1) Authenticity, esp. of the early Symphonies, e.g. on the first disc of this set the No. 1 Symphony, likely authentic, was composed by Wolfie in London when in was 8 y/o!  However, some of the later 'early' works were likely composed by others, including his father & Abel; 2) Sequence of these works - the numbers relative to the Symphonies was intermixed, but the Kochel numbers are in order; and 3) Performance - his first 'verified' symphony was written in 1764 and the last toward the end of his life a quater of century later - how should these works be performed?  I like Mackerras' approach (why buy the box?), but of course there are so many other ways to perform these works.  So, thus the questions - Dave 

[Bogey]

Gurn, Nut-Job, and Dave,

Just added the Beck disc to my wish-list.  As stated in the past, I buy a classical cd each month for my God children.  A goal within this is to make sure that their library not only has the "war-horses", but also composers not always thought of by most.  A variety if you will.  So just added the Beck disc to the wish-list for next months purchase.  Obviously, I will snag one also.