Mahlerly Challenged

[Jay F]

  Since I started this discussion (discontent over the Solti set) many pages ago I feel a sense of moral obligation to jump in here and say that I hope the discussions in the preceding pages have not upset anyone here.  I do not know why I reacted with such disdain to Solti's interpretation, perhaps it had something to do with my very first unpleasant reaction to Mahler's music and the fact that Mahler's music was delivered under the baton of Solti.  All I ask of someone who is Mahlerly challenged is to understand that interpretation could be one reason, one of many reasons that could have made Mahler's music...oh what is the word I am looking for here...."INACCESSABLE".

  marvin 

Have you listened yet to Bernstein doing Mahler?

[Sergeant Rock]

  Since I started this discussion (discontent over the Solti set) many pages ago I feel a sense of moral obligation to jump in here and say that I hope the discussions in the preceding pages have not upset anyone here. 

If anyone is, they shouldn't be. We all have our likes and dislikes. Although I wouldn't characterize Solti's Mahler the way imperfection did, I completely understand what he's talking about. On a scale ranging from aggressive to wimp, Solti is definitely on the aggressive side  That's what I like about him (in certain of the symphonies). His Sixth is a "take no prisoners" production...just like fate.

What you did, Marvin, was launch an interesting discussion...which is the purpose of this forum. No apologies necessary.

Sarge

[marvinbrown]

Have you listened yet to Bernstein doing Mahler?

  No I shamefully have not as I heard that Bernstein presents a very emotional take on these symphonies.   I was at HMV a few days ago and I noticed that there were a couple of  Bernstein Mahler symphony cycles on the market.  Which do you prefer:

  This one?

  or this one?

  or perhaps this DVD production?

  marvin

[marvinbrown]

If anyone is, they shouldn't be. We all have our likes and dislikes. Although I wouldn't characterize Solti's Mahler the way imperfection did, I completely understand what he's talking about. On a scale ranging from aggressive to wimp, Solti is definitely on the aggressive side  That's what I like about him (in certain of the symphonies). His Sixth is a "take no prisoners" production...just like fate.

What you did, Marvin, was launch an interesting discussion...which is the purpose of this forum. No apologies necessary.

Sarge

  Thank you Sarge. You are too kind my friend  .

[Bunny]

  No I shamefully have not as I heard that Bernstein presents a very emotional take on these symphonies.   I was at HMV a few days ago and I noticed that there were a couple of  Bernstein Mahler symphony cycles on the market.  Which do you prefer:

  This one?

  or this one?

  or perhaps this DVD production?

  marvin

The first cycle with the NYPO is held by many to be his best, but I also love the DG set.  I say "set" rather than cycle because it's not recorded with the same orchestra for all the symphonies.  It includes performances with the Concergebouw, NYPO, as well as the Vienna Phil.  I don't know the DVDs at all.   

In any event, the tempos on the whole are a bit faster in the Sony set than the DG set which is also more emotionally overwrought in places or "nuanced."  Bernstein did tend toward broader tempos as he got older.  Sound quality is also a bit better for the DG set than the older Sony cycle.  There may be newer remasters of the NYPO set, but the one pictured is the one that I have.

Both sets pack an emotional bang, if lacking the aggressive edge of Solti's cycles that was so belittled earlier in the thread.

Btw that DG set has become very pricey.  You know, for that money you can pick up Gielen's set which is held to be one of the best around.  Of course Gielen is a different "flavor" from Bernstein, cooler, harder edged, and darker.

If you are looking for something more lyrical with greater stress on the long line rather than the strobe light details of Solti, then Kubelik might be right for you. 

[mc ukrneal]

If anyone is, they shouldn't be. We all have our likes and dislikes. Although I wouldn't characterize Solti's Mahler the way imperfection did, I completely understand what he's talking about. On a scale ranging from aggressive to wimp, Solti is definitely on the aggressive side  That's what I like about him (in certain of the symphonies). His Sixth is a "take no prisoners" production...just like fate.

What you did, Marvin, was launch an interesting discussion...which is the purpose of this forum. No apologies necessary.

Sarge

Well Said...My sentiments exactly.

[imperfection]

Thankfully most members are reasonable, considerate in understanding other people's tastes.  I guess I just don't like Solti's Mahler at the end of the day. Call me what you will, but I have tried many times to enjoy his Mahler and have failed every time so far. So, I'll just stick to Bernstein, Sinopoli, Karajan.

Let the Solti bashing end here. 

This is what I posted on another forum (or newsgroup) recently, about Sinopoli's 5th:

"I just finished listening to Sinopoli's 5th. WOW, what a performance.
The blend of the orchestra is very transparent, if not as smooth as
Karajan's BPO. Where bite is required, plenty of wild power is
available; where gentleness and/or bleakness is required, the PO plays
like angels. I could detect quite a lot of unique interpretative
insights brought by the conductor: for example, the clear-as-bell low
string crescendo at the beginning of the 2nd movement (which is the
strongest of them all, in my opinion), the perfect authentic cadence
that has its distance minimized at the end of the 3rd movement, etc.
It's such a strongly played, well thought out account. If the
reappearance of the brass chorale at the end of the finale was more
grandiose and the accelerando started earlier after the chorale, and
if the last couple notes of the symphony were more pronounced in
strict tempo, this would no doubt have been my favourite 5th of them
all (I've heard about 8 so far).

The sound of the recording is excellent. There is plenty of space in
the avenue, which is good, and all instruments register very well.
Especially when you have trumpet snippets here and there, that trumpet
tone is just killer: not as bright as Karajan's BPO trumpets, but a
very strongly focused, centered, clean brilliance. The climaxes are
hair-raising. I love how you don't need to turn the volume knob way up
to hear the smallest of details.

In conclusion, what an awesome performance. I will surely go back to
this many times in the near future, currently it is one of my
favourite Mahler 5ths, along with Karajan and Bernstein DG. "

[Jay F]

  No I shamefully have not as I heard that Bernstein presents a very emotional take on these symphonies.   I was at HMV a few days ago and I noticed that there were a couple of  Bernstein Mahler symphony cycles on the market.  Which do you prefer:

  This one?
  marvin

Yes, this one, Bernstein's first set, on CBS/Sony, with the exceptions of the 4th, in which I like Karajan best, and the 5th, in which I like Bernstein's on DG, Karajan, and Sinopoli. I also like Solti's M5 on LP.

Of Bernstein's DG set, the 2nd and 7th are my favorites for those symphonies.

[Marc]

  No I shamefully have not as I heard that Bernstein presents a very emotional take on these symphonies.   I was at HMV a few days ago and I noticed that there were a couple of  Bernstein Mahler symphony cycles on the market.  Which do you prefer:

This one?
[CD box CBS/Sony]

or this one?
[CD box DG]

or perhaps this DVD production?
[DVD box DG]

marvin

To understand Bernstein's passionate passion for Mahler, the DVD set would not be a bad choice. Bernstein on DVD is, IMHO, always fascinating to watch.

[The new erato]

To understand Bernstein's passionate passion for Mahler, the DVD set would not be a bad choice. Bernstein on DVD is, IMHO, always fascinating to watch.

Like in John Oswald's concerto for Conductor and Orchestra. 

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

This is what I posted on another forum (or newsgroup) recently, about Sinopoli's 5th:

[detailed description snipped]

I have that performance as well. I've always liked it, but wouldn't put it at the very top. I should listen to it again with these things in mind.

My favorite M5 is Chailly/Conc'bouw (Decca).

[Sergeant Rock]

 No I shamefully have not as I heard that Bernstein presents a very emotional take on these symphonies.  I was at HMV a few days ago and I noticed that there were a couple of  Bernstein Mahler symphony cycles on the market.  Which do you prefer:

Not an easy answer (the easy answer is, of course, buy all three  ). I prefer the DG 1, 2, 5 and 6; Sony 3, 7, 8 and 9. Bernstein's Fourths I've never cared for but I really hate his use of a boy in the DG Finale. (I don't hate the Sony version; I just ignore it  )  Sound is not always better in the DG recordings (especially if you come from my perspective: having grown up with the Columbia corporate sound). I guess I'd opt for the classic first cycle if I only had room for one in my collection.

Sarge

[DavidRoss]

Bear in mind, Marvin, that the first cycle box set seems to be OOP now and commanding a high price, so if HMV has it at reasonable cost that might be reason alone to snatch it up.  Note that the DGG cycle is also available at mid price in three separate boxes (1-4, 5-7, 8-10+DLVDE).  Thanks partly to Sarge's praise, I pick up the DGG last year and really prefer it overall.  It's even more "emotionally" excessive (near-wallowing) than the first cycle.  Face it--if you want Bernstein's emotionalism--and there's a lot to be said for it--then you might as well go for all the gusto you can get!

[imperfection]

I have that performance as well. I've always liked it, but wouldn't put it at the very top. I should listen to it again with these things in mind.

My favorite M5 is Chailly/Conc'bouw (Decca).

The Chailly has wonderful, spacious sound too, and the characteristic dark Concertgebouw sound is also realistically captured. The Sinopoli is a great recording too, but of course the PO is brighter, leaner and perhaps more transparent than their Dutch counterpart here.

[Jay F]

This is the newly remastered version of Bernstein's CBS Mahler, superseding the orange & purple one pictured in posts #120, 122, and 125.



http://www.arkivmusic.com/albumpage/213113-E526-5

[greg]

That you listen to little else, or nothing else, caught my attention. I'm that way with it, too, but only for a couple of years at a time. Then I move on to something else, not coming back to Mahler for another few years. Then I listen to little else for another few years. And so on, and so on...

Other people--most people--seem able to integrate other composers into their listening routine. It's interesting and unusual to meet someone as single-minded as myself.

Hmm... i hate to surprise you again, but I'm not sure that's quite like how I listen. (maybe i said it wrong) 

To be more specific (trying not to ramble too much), for me it's been like this-roughly, when I first got into classical, I listened to just a few composers- Paganini, Bach, etc. for awhile, and didn't have hardly any CDs. After about a year, I discovered and completely fell in love with Prokofiev's music and the early Stravinsky ballets. The year after that, I developed a sort of fixation on the symphonies and piano concertos of Brahms. I was, simply, addicted... every night I would play through one all the way through, for over a year- it's like a complete escape from reality.

Then I discovered Mahler- at first, his phrasing sounded too square and direct compared to Brahms, but over time, with familiarity, I "got" his message, which was even more powerful, and I started listening to his music every single night for about 2 years- though the last year I haven't been so consistent. But I DO listen to other composers- and I mean, a lot- 2 or 3 CDs almost every day, since I need lots of variety to look forward to.

The sad thing is that there is still a lot of good music to look forward to, but I've already listened to enough to tell that there is most likely nothing out there that can beat my favorite, the 9th symphony (especially the Adagio). That's part of the reason why I keep on composing- just to see if I can write something better one day- even if I can't, at least I could say I tried. 


That is interesting how you describe your listening habits. What else have you moved on to during your Mahler off years? 

[Jay F]

That is interesting how you describe your listening habits. What else have you moved on to during your Mahler off years? 

Sometimes chamber music. Sometimes Linda Ronstadt, as well as everyone else who recorded on Asylum Records in the late 70s. Sometimes Mozart, esp. the Piano Concertos. Sometimes the Beach Boys.

[DavidRoss]

This is the newly remastered version of Bernstein's CBS Mahler, superseding the orange & purple one pictured in posts #120, 122, and 125.

Have you heard it? Any idea how this latest digital remastering compares with the remastering a few years ago for the orange/purple box? 

[Jay F]

Have you heard it? Any idea how this latest digital remastering compares with the remastering a few years ago for the orange/purple box? 

I haven't heard it. It just became available. It's still on pre-order at Amazon. I wonder if it's the same mastering as the SACDs from Japan, i.e., DSD but not SACD.

[DavidRoss]

I haven't heard it. It just became available. It's still on pre-order at Amazon. I wonder if it's the same mastering as the SACDs from Japan, i.e., DSD but not SACD.

Hmmm--I followed up the Arkiv citations--the reviews they cite are of earlier releases remastered, IIRC, in 2001, and Hurwitz gave it 10/8, not 10/10 as Arkiv misrepresents it on their item page.