I Need a Geography Lesson

[snyprrr]

Holland is the same as the Netherlands?
Dutch=Holland?

Why is there a Belgium and a Holland? What makes them different?

What is Belgium known for besides waffles?
What do you call someone from Belgium?
3 famous Belgian (is that the answer to previous Q?) composers?

Are any parts of France considered different "countries" (Normandy, Brittany) because of culture (or other reason)?

Is there some kind of secret in understanding this part of the world? It just seems like there are sooo many faceless composers from this area, though not many super-names. Why?

[ChamberNut]

Belgian  composers?

Most famous one - Cesar Franck

[Josquin des Prez]

Is there some kind of secret in understanding this part of the world? It just seems like there are sooo many faceless composers from this area, though not many super-names. Why?

Didn't the Netherlands produce many of the greatest Renaissance composers, or am i getting my geography wrong?

And of course, there's always this:

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=119522

[Dundonnell]

Holland is the same as the Netherlands?
Dutch=Holland?

Why is there a Belgium and a Holland? What makes them different?

What is Belgium known for besides waffles?
What do you call someone from Belgium?
3 famous Belgian (is that the answer to previous Q?) composers?

Are any parts of France considered different "countries" (Normandy, Brittany) because of culture (or other reason)?

Is there some kind of secret in understanding this part of the world? It just seems like there are sooo many faceless composers from this area, though not many super-names. Why?

It is too late at night in the United Kingdom-2.27am in fact-for me to launch into a History lesson(much as I would love to ) and it is probably more the responsibility of our Dutch and Belgian members to comment and respond.....but..very briefly-

The correct name for the state is The Kingdom of the Netherlands. The country is frequently-but incorrectly-referred to as Holland. 'Holland', in fact, does not exist. The Netherlands is made up of 12 provinces and two of these are North Holland(capital Haarlem) and South Holland(capital The Hague).
The people who live in the Netherlands are the Dutch.

The existence of Belgium and The Netherlands as two separate, independent countries goes back to their origins as the Austrian and the Spanish Netherlands but if I start getting into this I shall be up all night

The best person to tell you about the History of the area is Christo and if/when he is less busy I am sure that he would be delighted to oblige

As for famous Belgians...well, there is our own pjme

[Lethevich]

Why is there a Belgium and a Holland? What makes them different?

Turn of the 19th century politics. It's a real headache The Netherlands are the Netherlands, culturally their own, heavily influencing the modern area of Belgium to the south. France does the same to Belgium to the north. The nation existed in some part as a buffer zone between three powers, and was committed to a policy of neutrality befitting this. Wikipedia will be useful for more detail on this. Demographically, Belgium is notorious for basically being half "Dutch" and half "French". It is this percieved lack of its own identity which provokes much debate in the country. A native such as (if I recall correctly) pjme could help more with this.

What is Belgium known for besides waffles?

The area currently run as Belgium has produced many fine painters and composers between 1300 and 1700, but often allied to a broader culture which was not specific to this current arbritrary area. The Renaissance composers spread all across north France, the painters from the Flemish region were Dutch in their style. You can add chips (fries) to this list.

What do you call someone from Belgium?

Belgian, Flemish or Walloons, if you pick the wrong one, you may piss them off. This is kind of like the British/English thing.

Are any parts of France considered different "countries" (Normandy, Brittany) because of culture (or other reason)?

There is a lot of regionalist politics in a country like France. The modern country includes part of the Basque region, and some people from Alsace are also quite shouty about independance. It is no more extreme than other countries such as Spain and Italy, or even England.

[pjme]

I'll have to dig up my history books from school....

But for the next two weeks I won't be posting often : I'm very busy with the Queen Elisabeth Competition ( 2009 = violin). 

http://www.cmireb.be/en/

Apart from that : what do we really know about our neighbours? Let alone "real" life in a foreign country?
And don't forget that Belgium is a very small country ( ca 6 million Flemings and ca 4 million Walloons + a tiny German speaking minority ).

As for "classical" music: maybe no great composers ( check CEBEDEM's website for hundreds of names, never performed works, sleeping scores...) but we are quite proud of Herreweghe, the Kuijken family, Collegium Vocale Ghent, Capilla Flamenca, Currende, Oxalys, Roel Dieltiens, ....José Van Dam...

Thanks Lethe for your contribution. I may pick up this thread - possibly early june.

Peter

[Herman]

Demographically, Belgium is notorious for basically being half "Dutch" and half "French".

Half Flemish, rather than Dutch.

Belgium is a really nice country. It doesn't have the strange mix of Dutch mass-conformism (all houses the same) and its wild counterbehavior.

I'd also like to point out that Brussels is the Europolitical headquarters and thus a big power locus in the North Sea region.

[vandermolen]

Belgian composers whose music I like are Godfried Devreese, Arthur Meulemans, Daniel Sternefeld.
Yes, Herge, of Tintin fame was from Belgium as was one of my favourite artists Magritte. Also, another great artist James Ensor (whose father was English). Also the footballer Julien Cools (b 1947) - such a great name.  I wish I was called Julien Cools.

Ensor's 'Intrigue' (1911) - one of my favourite paintings:

[Opus106]

Spa Francorchamps!

[Florestan]

Emile Verhaeren, Georges Simenon, Jacques Brel... Eddie Merckx as well. 

[Superhorn]

   The great  violinist, composer  and  conductor  Eugene  Ysaye  was  Belgian, and  Walloon. I've heard  that  he  even  wrote  an opera  in  the  French  dialect  of  the  Walloons ! 

[snyprrr]

wow...I guess my question wasn't as dumb as I thought! Great posts, thanks all.

Ha...Tintin...my childhood friend! (thought he was Swedish)

Franck is Belgian? Huh! That's the kind of thing that's kept me confused. Aren't Ropartz and Koechlin from those "funny" parts of France where...nevermind...

I guess Belgium was really the country that was confusing me, but all your teaching has clarified the issue. It seems par for the course that my confusion was based on 19th cent. politics!

I didn't mean to infer that I'd forgotten about the Renaissance. Yes, of course, The Netherlands were the big boy back then.

But there is no "Holland." THAT is probably the tidbit that clears at least one name from the table. Great. Thanks all. Continue, if you like.

[snyprrr]

haha...as soon as I posted, I looked at the top of the screen, where normally there are cd offers for sale, and they have "gifts from Belgium", "trips to Holland", and such....hmmm...big brother is watching!

Vandermolen: Ensor is the same painter of the "masked ball" that graces the cover of Malipiero's SQs on Dynamic? Looks like his style.

Ysaye/Belgian...another clarification that helps. Thanks.

[The new erato]

What is Belgium known for besides waffles?

Hercules Poirot.

[Opus106]

Hercules Poirot.

Wow, I'm never going to forgive myself for forgetting that. 

[pjme]

Spa Francorchamps!

Since I dislike all "sports"   connected with cars ( silly, loud, dangerous, polluting, financial scandals  0:)), I'd rather stick to "Spa' alone - a lovely litlte town that gave its name to ...spa's!

http://www.spa-info.be/

..off to work!
P.

[Dundonnell]

Hercules Poirot.

Hercule Poirot

[Superhorn]

  Holland is just one part of the Netherlands, but the word is often used to mean the whole country for some reason.
  Charles Koechlin was from Alsace-Lorraine, a part of France on the German border, which used to belong to Germany,and where there is a decided German cultural influence.
Guy Ropatz was from the northern French region of Brittany, where there is strong Celtic influence. The Breton language is similar to Welsh, but has no official status there, and is pretty much a local dialect which
has dwindled in number of speakers.
 

[springrite]

  Holland is just one part of the Netherlands, but the word is often used to mean the whole country for some reason.
 

Well, that is so typical when the name was given by outside people who did not bother to understand. The "standard Chinese" is called "mandarin" in English. But "Mandarin" should refer to a language of the Manchus, and NO ONE in the world speak that language nowadays. It just happened that the Manchus, only making up less than 5% of the population in China, happened to be in power when the British first came in (opium war) and they assumed that the language in China is "Mandarin". But referring to standard Chinese as Mandarin is so standard in English now that everyone is forced to use the same term now, even though it is completely false. Even the Manchus today do not speak Mandarin. The language is dead, in face, deader than Latin.

[Opus106]

Well, that is so typical when the name was given by outside people who did not bother to understand. The "standard Chinese" is called "mandarin" in English. But "Mandarin" should refer to a language of the Manchus, and NO ONE in the world speak that language nowadays. It just happened that the Manchus, only making up less than 5% of the population in China, happened to be in power when the British first came in (opium war) and they assumed that the language in China is "Mandarin". But referring to standard Chinese as Mandarin is so standard in English now that everyone is forced to use the same term now, even though it is completely false. Even the Manchus today do not speak Mandarin. The language is dead, in face, deader than Latin.

I didn't know that. Thanks, springrite.