Death

[Iconito]

Incogneto.

It’s “Iconito” 

The term 'arguing' that I used and you quoted was used with its meaning of reasoned discussion; not with the more modern meaning o dialogue in conflict.

Oh, OK... Then let me present you a caricature (a caricature) of the discussion you mentioned:
A: -Behold! Your own death means nothing to you!
B: -I’m afraid of the pain of dying
A: -But is the pain of dying different from any other pain? Are you afraid of the pain, or are you afraid of the dying? Is pain worse when coupled with death? And are you afraid of a painless death?

I don’t see a contradiction. The questions aim to differentiate fear of death from fear of something else. Granted, I didn’t answer my own questions, I just asked them (My own -tentative- answers would be “no”, “the pain”, “no” and “no”. )

As to this: "I just left out the afterlife. And I did it for at least two reasons: Number one, I didn’t want somebody expressing his fear of (say) burning in Hell"

This leaves out all those who may be terrified of there not being an afterlife.

Mike

I think there’s a misunderstanding (surprise! ) What I said was “I didn’t want somebody expressing his fear of (say) burning in Hell, AND somebody else responding “Don’t worry, there’s no Hell. You will reincarnate into a butterfly”, AND a third one responding “that’s nonsense! When you die, you die for good!”. Now THAT is a pointless discussion... And, despite the fact that we do have such discussions all the time, I wanted this one to be different. I wanted this one to be limited to one set of believes”

And yes, it was pointed out several times (beginning with the OP, for Ravel’s sake) that this leaves some people out of the game... But once again: Should I be demonized if I want to play chess, thus leaving out the non-chess-players?

[vandermolen]

We could ask the guy on the left here for the definitive answer 

[MishaK]

Or this guy:

[Iconito]

Oh I think Florestan understood you perfectly fine, I don't know why you have to be so condescending.  A few posters now have pointed that your premise is too narrowly focused and doesn't make for an interesting discussion, so the problem is obviously with you and not with him.  Just saying why don't you stop attacking him now and consider changing the topic of your thread (which has not been a success so far)?

I didn’t mean to be condescending, not to mention to attack Florestan (I like Florestan. We share Brahms, Borges, despise for greedy record companies, just to mention a few things. Besides, he’s a really nice guy) The exchange was:

F: -If I understand correctly, the game is such and such.

I: -Well, no... The game is actually such and such. But even if you understand correctly now, I guess you’ll still not like it.

Is that the offensive part? He said “if I understand correctly” and then said the game was something that it’s not. How is that “understanding correctly”? And how is it offensive to point it out? I just don’t get it...

But even if I don’t get it, if it seemed offensive I’M SORRY, I didn’t mean it that way...

And the “I guess you’ll still not like it” part was because I know Florestan’s beliefs and it’s reasonable to think that he wouldn’t be comfortable with my “premise” --even when I didn’t asked ask anybody to actually BELIEVE the premise, but only to accept it for the sake of the discussion, and even when I did put a clear WARNING in the OP...

So, I set up a game, I state some rules, I state that some people may find those rules uncomfortable and may prefer not to play... And then those “some people” come to tell me they don’t like the rules (what a surprise! I said so!) and accuse me of being impolite, narrow-minded and whatnot... And I am the one giving explanations and saying I’m sorry...

Dude, seriously, I’m willing to give all the necessary explanations and say I’m sorry as many times as needed, but I’m feeling that either my English is far worse than I thought, or some people here are really making the wrong choice in the “Toilet Paper vs. A Stick” thread (I’ll believe it’s my English  )

[Gurn Blanston]

Iconito,
Well, perhaps it's the word "fear" that makes me want to revolt from the game. I don't fear death, neither do I seek it out. I have had a few close calls in my time, and fear didn't enter into the equation. But outside of that, I would say instead that I don't particularly wish to die, because I am enjoying life, and that would come to an end. True enough, I wouldn't know it so no skin off MY nose, but I want to see how things are going to turn out. Like, will Tiger Woods surpass Jack Nicklaus as the greatest golfer of all time? Will the Quatuor Mosaiques ever finish their Haydn cycle? And will Karl Henning ever get published big time? Maybe I could break 80 some day, or take a real vacation. If I die now, I won't ever know the answers to those questions and oh so many more. And I want to. So no, fear isn't a factor, curiosity is what keeps me going.



----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 39 Op 33 #3 Quartet in C 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

[Iconito]

Iconito,
Well, perhaps it's the word "fear" that makes me want to revolt from the game. I don't fear death, neither do I seek it out. I have had a few close calls in my time, and fear didn't enter into the equation. But outside of that, I would say instead that I don't particularly wish to die, because I am enjoying life, and that would come to an end. True enough, I wouldn't know it so no skin off MY nose, but I want to see how things are going to turn out. Like, will Tiger Woods surpass Jack Nicklaus as the greatest golfer of all time? Will the Quatuor Mosaiques ever finish their Haydn cycle? And will Karl Henning ever get published big time? Maybe I could break 80 some day, or take a real vacation. If I die now, I won't ever know the answers to those questions and oh so many more. And I want to. So no, fear isn't a factor, curiosity is what keeps me going.

A beautiful post, Gurn, thank you. This shows why you are my favorite Mod (after Bruce, of course  )

I’m glad you are enjoying your life (sadly, you don’t really hear that from everybody in our little planet) and glad you don’t fear death (BTW, fear of death isn’t really a part of the “premise” here. It was only mentioned as an example of the possible implications of our alleged “immortality”, like, “does it make sense to fear this thing you are not able to actually experience?”) If you don’t mind to tell me: Did you come to this attitude towards death naturally, did you give it a lot of thought, did it have anything to do with those “close calls” you have had, did you start thinking about it when you noticed you were not that young anymore? (I mention that last one only because I remember you talking about yourself as a “viejo”, although at your age, nowadays, you still are young enough for salsa... er... well... tango?  )

I loved that bit about curiosity keeping you going. The other day (well... It was like two months ago, actually...), after watching the trailer for Toy Story 3 they showed in front of UP (I’m kind of a Pixar fan), I said to Iconita something like “I hope I live enough to see this movie” (a silly comment, since I’m 37 and chances are I’ll make it). Now, according to my “philosophy” (yeah, let’s call it that. Just don’t tell Schopenhauer ), it wouldn’t make the slightest difference to me if I dropped dead right now, before hitting the “post” button, let alone seeing that movie... This way of thinking, in the wrong hands () could be used to justify a total disinterest in life, like “let’s kill ourselves right now for it makes no difference anyway”... But no, not at all, since the joys of life are there to enjoy while you still live (while you still “you”), and that’s more than enough to justify the desire to keep living (well... assuming one’s life doesn’t suck big time...), but yes, it is also true that it’ll make no difference to you if you die tomorrow, next year or 30 years from now... So, it’s a little like eating your cake and still having it. Isn’t it?



P.S.: “Maybe I could break 80 some day” was genius

[Florestan]

I like Florestan. We share Brahms, Borges, despise for greedy record companies, just to mention a few things. Besides, he's a really nice guy

Thank you, I reciprocate the appreciation.

Don't worry, I didn't take any offense, especially after your consequent explanations and apologies.  0:)

AFAIC, I cannot play this game because (a) I don't share its fundamental premise and (b) I'm not interested in theoretical "what if" discussions which from my point of view bear no relevance to the real world. That's all.

[knight66]

A beautiful post, Gurn, thank you. This shows why you are my favorite Mod (after Bruce, of course  )

Well, thank you, you ungrateful little wretch. But no sweat; I know you are a particular favourite with Gurn. So this mutual stuff is nice to see.

Mike

[Herman]

So, if the idea holds, really: Why bother? Focus on life (i.e. Me) and never think about it again.

And that's why you initiated a discussion titled "Death"?

[knight66]

Yes, I take it he is from the 'Me' generation. I thought life = me to be a significant tell tale marker.

Mike

[Gurn Blanston]

A beautiful post, Gurn, thank you. This shows why you are my favorite Mod (after Bruce, of course  )

....If you don't mind to tell me: Did you come to this attitude towards death naturally, did you give it a lot of thought, did it have anything to do with those "close calls" you have had, did you start thinking about it when you noticed you were not that young anymore? (I mention that last one only because I remember you talking about yourself as a "viejo", although at your age, nowadays, you still are young enough for salsa... er... well... tango?  )

I loved that bit about curiosity keeping you going. ... This way of thinking, in the wrong hands () could be used to justify a total disinterest in life, like "let's kill ourselves right now for it makes no difference anyway"... But no, not at all, since the joys of life are there to enjoy while you still live (while you still "you"), and that's more than enough to justify the desire to keep living (well... assuming one's life doesn't suck big time...), but yes, it is also true that it'll make no difference to you if you die tomorrow, next year or 30 years from now... So, it's a little like eating your cake and still having it. Isn't it?



P.S.: "Maybe I could break 80 some day" was genius

Iconito,
Well, clearly I haven't thought about this as much as you have, in fact when you posed the question I had to think about it in order to realize what my tenets are. So that pretty well takes care of your question. I have always felt this way, and I can't attribute a cause to it based on some early experience. I was brought up in a very religious setting and even at the age of 5 or 6 I had already decided that this was not something I was going to believe in, so I came up with something that satisfied me (a simple 'what the hell, when you're dead you're dead, so why worry about it?'). And so I haven't. I suppose that the death of my best friend when we were 15 simply served to harden my attitude. But again, this isn't something I think about and ponder on, it just happens. I was never a philosopher beyond myself, if that makes sense.

No, you're right, I am not really old, although I am at an age where body parts don't always do what they did in previous times. So that brings home the reality of one's mortality. But not in the sense like 'my knee keeps breaking down, I'm going to die soon...', more like 'I need to adjust what I do to account for my knee breaking down, so I don't fall off the roof '. Ultimately, I guess I'm saying that the philosophy that I developed in my earliest youth 'don't worry about death, it will take care of itself' still works for me now when it is inevitably closer as it did when I was young it it seemed like something over a distant horizon.

Yes, breaking 80 was a 2 edged thing; I'd like to do it going downwards on the golf course, and going upwards on the age scale. But if neither of those happens, well, so it goes.

[Iconito]

Thank you, I reciprocate the appreciation.

Don't worry, I didn't take any offense, especially after your consequent explanations and apologies.  0:)

[Iconito]

Well, thank you, you ungrateful little wretch. But no sweat; I know you are a particular favourite with Gurn. So this mutual stuff is nice to see.

Mike

Well, Mike, I really do try to love all my Mods equally but, alas, that’s not always easy... Perhaps you may win some points if you stop calling me “Incogneto” and comparing my thread to Caligula's experiments... 

[Iconito]

And that's why you initiated a discussion titled "Death"?

Not really. I initiated a discussion titled "DEATH", but then Que came in and edited it to “Death” which, I agree with you, doesn’t make a lot of sense... 

[Iconito]

Yes, I take it he is from the 'Me' generation. I thought life = me to be a significant tell tale marker.

Mike

Context, Mike, context... (You are making it worse for us with every post, did you know that?  ) I was referring to death (from a personal point of view, of course, i.e. my death as it concerns me) as meaning “not-Me-anymore”, so referring to life as “Me” made (sort of) sense.

[Iconito]

Iconito,
Well, clearly I haven't thought about this as much as you have, in fact when you posed the question I had to think about it in order to realize what my tenets are. So that pretty well takes care of your question. I have always felt this way, and I can't attribute a cause to it based on some early experience. I was brought up in a very religious setting and even at the age of 5 or 6 I had already decided that this was not something I was going to believe in, so I came up with something that satisfied me (a simple 'what the hell, when you're dead you're dead, so why worry about it?'). And so I haven't. I suppose that the death of my best friend when we were 15 simply served to harden my attitude. But again, this isn't something I think about and ponder on, it just happens. I was never a philosopher beyond myself, if that makes sense.

No, you're right, I am not really old, although I am at an age where body parts don't always do what they did in previous times. So that brings home the reality of one's mortality. But not in the sense like 'my knee keeps breaking down, I'm going to die soon...', more like 'I need to adjust what I do to account for my knee breaking down, so I don't fall off the roof '. Ultimately, I guess I'm saying that the philosophy that I developed in my earliest youth 'don't worry about death, it will take care of itself' still works for me now when it is inevitably closer as it did when I was young it it seemed like something over a distant horizon.

Yes, breaking 80 was a 2 edged thing; I'd like to do it going downwards on the golf course, and going upwards on the age scale. But if neither of those happens, well, so it goes.

Thanks again, Gurn (Hopefully that will show Mike )

This bit: “the philosophy that I developed in my earliest youth 'don't worry about death, it will take care of itself' still works for me now when it is inevitably closer”... It resonates with the exchange I had with Bulldog before, about managing to achieve a mind-set that gets one “ready to face whatever comes next” (which is, as I said then, perhaps the very reason for me wanting to discuss this rather unpleasant topic, and not some sick morbid tendencies)

And, hopefully, we’ll still be around to celebrate your 80th birthday here at GMG (I hope we’ll have some sort of cyber-virtual-holographic rooms by then, instead of this primitive text based crap...  )

[drogulus]

     Death is no fun. Don't take my word for it, you can ask anybody.

Iconito,
Well, perhaps it's the word "fear" that makes me want to revolt from the game. I don't fear death, neither do I seek it out. I have had a few close calls in my time, and fear didn't enter into the equation. But outside of that, I would say instead that I don't particularly wish to die, because I am enjoying life, and that would come to an end. True enough, I wouldn't know it so no skin off MY nose, but I want to see how things are going to turn out. Like, will Tiger Woods surpass Jack Nicklaus as the greatest golfer of all time? Will the Quatuor Mosaiques ever finish their Haydn cycle? And will Karl Henning ever get published big time? Maybe I could break 80 some day, or take a real vacation. If I die now, I won't ever know the answers to those questions and oh so many more. And I want to. So no, fear isn't a factor, curiosity is what keeps me going.



----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 39 Op 33 #3 Quartet in C 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

     How is this not being a philosopher? You have thought about it and decided that the folk beliefs are not worth bothering about. Perhaps what is unphilosophical is your desire to stop there. I don't blame you for that, it's not something for everyone. In my case some of these issues are in the line of sight of my real quarry, which is what there is and how we know. So what there isn't and how we don't know have to be dealt with, not because they are important but because the errors that underlie these folk beliefs crop up in different places, like the origins of life and the Universe, and the meaning of consciousness. These interest me the most, so I have to cut through the other stuff to get at them.

[Gurn Blanston]

     Death is no fun. Don't take my word for it, you can ask anybody.

     How is this not being a philosopher? You have thought about it and decided that the folk beliefs are not worth bothering about. Perhaps what is unphilosophical is your desire to stop there. I don't blame you for that, it's not something for everyone. In my case some of these issues are in the line of sight of my real quarry, which is what there is and how we know. So what there isn't and how we don't know have to be dealt with, not because they are important but because the errors that underlie these folk beliefs crop up in different places, like the origins of life and the Universe, and the meaning of consciousness. These interest me the most, so I have to cut through the other stuff to get at them.

Well, yes, I suspect that you (and they) are correct. No fun. No nothing.

I suppose that there is some intent involved in philosophy. You have an intent to discover the basis of superstitions, while MY intent is to not worry about it. So, mine is philosophy only in a negative sort of way. I understand your curiosity about what people believe and why. It compels you and so you do it. I have lots of curiosities, but none of them involve anything remotely spiritual (which is where I categorize the death ideas), so I simply file it away among 'things I can't do anything about' and move on to things that I can... The thing in my sidebar (which I've recently replaced after many moons) about being the gentle cynic who really doesn't care was an apt description, I'm afraid.




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Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 44 Quartet in Bb for Strings Op 50 #1 1st mvmt - Allegro

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks again, Gurn (Hopefully that will show Mike )

And, hopefully, we'll still be around to celebrate your 80th birthday here at GMG (I hope we'll have some sort of cyber-virtual-holographic rooms by then, instead of this primitive text based crap...  )

That would be cool! "Up to the Holodeck, Mr. Iconito, we have a party to attend!".



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Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 44 Quartet in Bb for Strings Op 50 #1 2nd mvmt - Adagio non lento

[drogulus]

     Gurn, that was my point, that "negative philosophy" has plenty of philosophy behind it. How else would you know not to be interested?