Repeating Eugene Onegin's Mistake

[Harpo]

In order to change someone, you need a certain amount of subtlety, because if you tell someone they are wrong, they will become defensive. You kind of have to blow wind at a sail, and it will change direction on its own. You can't even take any credit for it.


I was reading some problems people where having, and asking advice, and its amazing how the advisers worked. The never told the person what to do, the person themself always figured out on their own the solution. And I thought to myself, wow that is so much more powerful than just directly giving someone advice. Maybe I should ask them for advice about giving advice.

I like that! In social work school (a low period in my life) they taught us to "start where the client is"--imposing your judgments on them  just turns them away. You empathize with their current condition in order to form a relationship. If your client is an alcoholic wife beater, but he wants to talk about his problems at work,then you start there.

[karlhenning]

I like that! In social work school (a low period in my life) they taught us to "start where the client is"--imposing your judgments on them  just turns them away. You empathize with their current condition in order to form a relationship. If your client is an alcoholic wife beater, but he wants to talk about his problems at work,then you start there.

Very true.

In the case of the OP, though, it wasn't the "client" who needed help, but "The Expert." 

[Harpo]

Hume first talked about this: Quality isn't entirely subjective; what makes Bach or Mozart better than Grieg?  Bach and Mozart's work is objectively better than that of Grieg.  Returning to Kant; one must have the appropriate education to appreciate quality.
Having said that, the girl in question had planned to make a make-up artist of herself, I saw that and should have tried my hand in helping her to an alternative.

1. I like Grieg--the folk quality of his music makes me happy. I'm not even going to attempt to talk about what makes "good" music--I'm sure that's been done to death here.

2. Nobody wants to be re-molded. They first want to be accepted for who they are.

3. A prestigious education does not necessarily help you to cope in the real world.

[greg]

Change has to come from within her

True in many other ways...

[Harpo]

Very true.

In the case of the OP, though, it wasn't the "client" who needed help, but "The Expert." 

Probably so. People often try to help others for the wrong reasons.

[Herman]

Probably so. People often try to help others for the wrong reasons.

and then there are those who don't help others one bit, but pose afterwards as if their overweening superiority could have provided help of the greatest magnitude.

[DavidW]

I think that papageno is just at that age where he thinks he knows everything, even if he only thinks that subconsciously.  I find the idea of "helping" others laughable when we usually have trouble helping ourselves.  I'm not a religious man, but this quote is apt--

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

As I turn 30 next week, I'm quite slowly coming off that smug arrogance myself.  Only as you come down off that high horse do you begin to see how high you were perched up there, and how stupid it was.  

Don't worry, I'm still plenty arrogant.  Probably won't shed that until I'm 40 or perhaps 50.

[karlhenning]

Well, we many of us were dumb bricks when we were young 

[Papageno]

Well, we many of us were dumb bricks when we were young 

Yeah, pffff.

[Papageno]

You're not getting my point darlings.

[greg]

Why are you calling grown men "darlings"? Is this an English thing I don't know about? 

[Papageno]

I think that papageno is just at that age where he thinks he knows everything, even if he only thinks that subconsciously.  I find the idea of "helping" others laughable when we usually have trouble helping ourselves.  I'm not a religious man, but this quote is apt--

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

As I turn 30 next week, I'm quite slowly coming off that smug arrogance myself.  Only as you come down off that high horse do you begin to see how high you were perched up there, and how stupid it was.  

Don't worry, I'm still plenty arrogant.  Probably won't shed that until I'm 40 or perhaps 50.

By all means, I'm not saying that I am flawless myself, I do try to correct myself as much as possible, not to say that I can't help someone in a wretched state.

Why, do you know how much I'd like to have a woman of about forty or fifty to be my mentor, my reformer, my teacher - and lover.

[greg]

Why, do you know how much I'd like to have woman of about forty or fifty to be my mentor, my reformer, my teacher - and lover.

What odd taste from someone your age. 

[Papageno]

What odd taste from someone your age.  

Oh yes.  No, I don't touch the young ones, I keep them in distance and feed my influence and sentiment with them - the frail and innocent ones, that is.  Just like Dante did with young Beatrice.  I like the older, "corrupt" ones for lovers, I don't want to sully; I want the sullied.

[greg]

I've heard positive things about women that age... um, though I'd rather not go into detail. 
I just wonder how in the world you would find 40 year olds more attractive than 20 year olds?...

[Papageno]

I've heard positive things about women that age... um, though I'd rather not go into detail. 
I just wonder how in the world you would find 40 year olds more attractive than 20 year olds?...

Huge difference; one is Dante's Beatrice, and the other Flaubert's Madame Arnoux.

[knight66]

Oh yes.  No, I don't touch the young ones, I keep them in distance and feed my influence and sentiment with them - the frail and innocent ones, that is.  Just like Dante did with young Beatrice.  I like the older, "corrupt" ones for lovers, I don't want to sully; I want the sullied.

You don't have a decomposing picture of yourself in the attic by any chance?

What was that you pulled with the premature news of your death? You seem a very lively corpse today. I am tempted to suggest that you get back in your box.

At least you have the self awareness to indicate some connection to Onegin...I can see that, none of it to your advantage.

Mike

[Papageno]

You don't have a decomposing picture of yourself in the attic by any chance?

What was that you pulled with the premature news of your death? You seem a very lively corpse today. I am tempted to suggest that you get back in your box.

At least you have the self awareness to indicate some connection to Onegin...I can see that, none of it to your advantage.

Mike

Yes, I repent and am still serving my retribution.

[ChamberNut]

'Geno, I think you and Sean should get together.  You two would make a 'darling' couple.  0:)

[Papageno]

I haven't seen Sean in the forum for quite a while...