Saul's Music Space

[knight66]

Saul,

It seems you have been born into the wrong time. That piece is totally derivative. The world moves on and exploring art means innovation. We can't keep stepping into the footsteps of the past.

We no longer build in the Gothic style.
People do not paint to emulate Raphael.
Artists do not sculpt as Canova did.
No one writes in the style of Dickens.

....No serious living composer treks closely along the soundworld of Bach

There are of course often references to and influences from the past in present works of art. We may feel that artists presently have lost their way. But unless they are working to make their art relevent to the world around them, they merely create the kind of material you are writing; pastiche. Frankly, that is hack work. Art is a mirror or a lamp to society, anything else is irrelevant chocolate box material and lacks integrity or rigor of thought.

That does not take away from Bach, Canova etc, we love their work, it still speaks to us, but we are in the present and creating a future, not dreaming of the past.

Mike 

[jowcol]

The world moves on and exploring art means innovation. We can't keep stepping into the footsteps of the past.

We no longer build in the Gothic style.
People do not paint to emulate Raphael.
Artists do not sculpt as Canova did.
No one writes in the style of Dickens.

....No serious living composer treks closely along the soundworld of Bach

There are of course often references to and influences from the past in present works of art. We may feel that artists presently have lost their way. But unless they are working to make their art relevent to the world around them, they merely create ... pastiche.... Art is a mirror or a lamp to society, anything else is irrelevant chocolate box material and lacks integrity or rigor of thought.

That does not take away from Bach, Canova etc, we love their work, it still speaks to us, but we are in the present and creating a future, not dreaming of the past.

Mike

This brings to mind the Borges essay "Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote.".  The idea was that an imaginary 20th Century author (Menard), would rewrite Cervante's Don Quixote exactly word for word- -but that the entire meaning of the novel would differ based on the time it was written.   A side by side analysis was particularly interesting:

It is a revelation to compare Menard's Don Quixote with Cervantes'. The latter, for example, wrote (part one, chapter nine):
. . . truth, whose mother is history, rival of time, depository of deeds, witness of the past, exemplar and adviser to the present, and the future's counselor. Written in the seventeenth century, written by the "lay genius" Cervantes, this enumeration is a mere rhetorical praise of history.

Menard, on the other hand, writes:
. . . truth, whose mother is history, rival of time, depository of deeds, witness of the past, exemplar and adviser to the present, and the future's counselor.

History, the mother of truth: the idea is astounding. Menard, a contemporary of William James, does not define history as an inquiry into reality but as its origin. Historical truth, for him, is not what has happened; it is what we judge to have happened. The final phrases—exemplar and adviser to the present, and the future's counselor —are brazenly pragmatic.

The contrast in style is also vivid. The archaic style of Menard—quite foreign, after all—suffers from a certain affectation. Not so that of his forerunner, who handles with ease the current Spanish of his time.

[\quote]

Of course, Borges' idea was not encourage more Menards, and when 20th century composers did adopt neo-classical forms, (Pulcinella, anyone?) the looked at the classical tradition as more of a tool box than a cook book.

My own particular opinion is that anyone who wants to create something should be empowered to create whatever they want, but if they are really trying to communicate to a specific audience, they need to work with the needs and expectations of that audience.   If an work of art is created "out of spite", or to prove some external point, how can the work ever be a genuine statement that will be received by that audience?  If an the work is an expression of some inner angst-- how can it be done using an existing form without personalization?


Finally, if it is so necessary to have a competition (I'm seeing an American Idol thang here), perhaps we can borrow WC Field's approach where the winner gets One Night in Philadelphia, and the runner up gets Two Nights in Philadelphia...

[Luke]

I would echo the sentiments of these last two posts if it wasn't for the fact that Saul's piece has nothing of the baroque in it beyond a kind of constant semiquaver motion. I can see what he is aiming at - but really, bar by bar, note by note, the piece is so chock full of things that would make a baroque composer turn in his grave that I can't even begin to list them. Big things and little things, un-baroque rhythms (those odd cross-the-bar syncopations that don't really work as syncopations, un-baroque figurations, lines that go nowhere, chords lacking thirds, that infernal constant notational thing (B minor has A#s, not Bbs, F# minor has E#s, not F naturals....those passages are such a pain to read, because they don't look like they sound; this is what that lengthy post I made on your thread yesterday was about....), the initial expectation of a fugue or at least some attempt at imitation in the opening bars frustrated instantly, lack of melodic purpose in any line slower than a 16th... It's a bit painful, which isn't fun to say. 

[Saul]

I would echo the sentiments of these last two posts if it wasn't for the fact that Saul's piece has nothing of the baroque in it beyond a kind of constant semiquaver motion. I can see what he is aiming at - but really, bar by bar, note by note, the piece is so chock full of things that would make a baroque composer turn in his grave that I can't even begin to list them. Big things and little things, un-baroque rhythms (those odd cross-the-bar syncopations that don't really work as syncopations, un-baroque figurations, lines that go nowhere, chords lacking thirds, that infernal constant notational thing (B minor has A#s, not Bbs, F# minor has E#s, not F naturals....those passages are such a pain to read, because they don't look like they sound; this is what that lengthy post I made on your thread yesterday was about....), the initial expectation of a fugue or at least some attempt at imitation in the opening bars frustrated instantly, lack of melodic purpose in any line slower than a 16th... It's a bit painful, which isn't fun to say. 

If you really expected me to take a Bach work and copy it note by note , then you would have missed my music. I used the Baroque style as an influence, but this work is a completely new and refreshing piece.

[karlhenning]

If you really expected me to take a Bach work and copy it note by note , then you would have missed my music. I used the Baroque style as an influence, but this work is a completely new and refreshing piece.

Saul, you clearly haven't read a word of what either Mike or Luke just said.

[Saul]

Wait...are you going to write atonal music because you like it or because there are others who like it? Surely you know what an artist's honest response should be....

Didn't you just spend a good week denouncing atonal and modern music and everything to do with them?

There is nothing wrong with experimentation. In fact before I began digital work I used to paint, then I experimented with the photo manipulation techniques, and I enjoyed it very much and decided to create this kind of art. There is no contradiction.
Also, this whole talk about atonal music was about generating a discussion, pushing the limits and making people speak what they feel about it.
Also, I really like some of the Atonal music that I composed and Improvised this past week, I believe that I like it because I understand it, I get my own music, but Schoenberg and Webern are too obscure for me, and since I don't understand their music, I don't enjoy it.
Its too, how should I say it...disorganized lacking direction and unity. In my pieces I believe I was able to create a flowing line from beginning to end, which is very important in music.

[Saul]

Saul, you clearly haven't read a word of what either Mike or Luke just said.

I read them, Mike suggests that i should put this kind of style and music away and begin exploring new avenues of expression within modern music.
I got it, that's his opinion, and he has every right to state it.

But I don't agree with :

'We no longer build in the Gothic style.
People do not paint to emulate Raphael.
Artists do not sculpt as Canova did.
No one writes in the style of Dickens.

....No serious living composer treks closely along the soundworld of Bach'

[karlhenning]

The attached is an excerpt from an old piece; I wrote it some 16 years ago, though it was only performed for the first time a week ago today.  At the bottom of the first page begins the last in a series of variations on the folksong "Barbara Allan";  it was written in an echo of Baroque style.

Now, the funny thing (as I see it) is that, on the day of the concert, the pianist — who had not seen my program notes, nor had we discussed the piece in detail . . . he essentially agreed to perform the piece on my sending it to him as a PDF file — the pianist suddenly said to me, "I have to ask you: were you thinking of the second movement of Bach's Italian Concerto when you composed this?"

[Saul]

The attached is an excerpt from an old piece; I wrote it some 16 years ago, though it was only performed for the first time a week ago today.  At the bottom of the first page begins the last in a series of variations on the folksong "Barbara Allan";  it was written in an echo of Baroque style.

Now, the funny thing (as I see it) is that, on the say of the concert, the pianist — who had not seen my program notes, nor had we discussed the piece in detail . . . he essentially agreed to perform the piece on my sending it to him as a PDF file — the pianist suddenly said to me, "I have to ask you: were you thinking of the second movement of Bach's Italian Concerto when you composed this?"

I want to hear a midi or something if you can, please...

[karlhenning]

I don't have that available at the moment.

[Luke]

If you really expected me to take a Bach work and copy it note by note , then you would have missed my music. I used the Baroque style as an influence, but this work is a completely new and refreshing piece.

Well, what you said initially was:

To all the composers in this site. I wanted to create a composition challenge for anyone that is interested to contribute.
The first challenge :

Compose a short piano piece not more then 2 minutes at any tempi in the Baroque style.

...not in a style influenced by the baroque. But actually, my point remains, it isn't that your piece doesn't really bear the imprint of Baroque style; the faults I pointed out would be essentially the same if this was a classical pastiche. That's what I was meaning, the other day, about competence - some things are just not right, such as the notation things, or the way the melodic lines flow (or don't)...

[Saul]

Well, what you said initially was:

...not in a style influenced by the baroque. But actually, my point remains, it isn't that your piece doesn't really bear the imprint of Baroque style; the faults I pointed out would be essentially the same if this was a classical pastiche. That's what I was meaning, the other day, about competence - some things are just not right, such as the notation things, or the way the melodic lines flow (or don't)...

What's wrong with the notation and the meolodic lines?

[Luke]

I don't have that available at the moment.

In the interests of illumination I printed your sample out and sightread it into a microphone. Sightread it, you understand....all starts out nice and easy, Karl, and then I turned the page to see all these arabesques I wasn't expecting, and just had to grit my teeth and plough through them! It's also at a very low bitrate so that it fits within the 500kb attachment limit. So this is scarcely even an approximation of your piece, and I apologise fully. I will delete it if you'd prefer! But perhaps it might serve a purpose just for this thread.

[karlhenning]

Most kind of you, thanks, Luke!

[(poco) Sforzando]

I want to hear a midi or something if you can, please...

Can't you play the piano?

[karlhenning]

And nicely done, Luke!  Thanks again.

[Luke]

What's wrong with the notation and the meolodic lines?

I've written you quite lengthy posts about the notation before - for instance, the use of enharmonic notation is awkward and nasty to read (to be honest, sometimes Baroque composers, early Baroque composers, did this too, though they knew they were doing it, and it isn't part of standard practice, for a good reason). There are also those odd bits where single voices seem to split into two - just before trills, the last page or so being particularly full of this. This makes no sense, especially as the piece looks to be a two part invention the rest of the time.

As far as the melodic writing goes...well, your running semiquavers sometimes have a nice dirve about them, but around them you are fitting slower lines which don't really seem to go anywhere. In a Baroque piece, especially in a two part invention which this essentially is, each line should be interesting in its own right and for my money, FWIW, some of those lines, especially the quarter notes on the first two pages, didn't have much of a melodic purpose to them.

[Florestan]

Can't you play the piano?

Ha!

[Luke]

And nicely done, Luke!  Thanks again.

You're too kind - I'm squirming a bit, listening again! But, with a little practice... anyway, it provides an illustration, which was all I intended.

[Saul]

Can't you play the piano?

I don't have a printer.