Mendelssohn vs. Schoenberg

[karlhenning]

LOL two bad composers prasing each other.

LOL who's calling whom "bad composers"?

[Saul]

LOL who's calling whom "bad composers"?

Yes, even I'm better then these two crackerbots.

[Saul]

How about Mendelssohn at 15?

Symphony No.1 In C minor...

http://www.youtube.com/v/zpgas5hXjEI

[Luke]

As I asked you to earlier, Saul, I will believe every word you say about Shocenberg (or Stravinsky) if you are able to take any piece of theirs and point me to these flaws that you keep saying are there. I want objective flaws, since you are talking about objective fact. Not your opinion that they are drivel, that you don't like the harmonies, but musical proof - bad orchestration, bad voice-leading, structural misconceptions, anything at all.

You have a way of ignoring inconvenient posts (like the one I just wrote, with the Brahms quotation in which he baldly stated that Mozart was the greatest of composers, no 'I wish I'd...' or 'unfortunately not by me' (he said that of Strauss) or 'if only I"d known, I'd have done this too' (he said that of Dvorak)....). It would be good to see you engaging with a difficult argument to try to convince others of your views, rather than ignoring those ones and just repeating the same tired old groundless rootless lines, because that convinces no one. Quite the opposite.

[knight66]

Karl and Luke, You will both be sent to the naughty step because you cannot resist temptation.

Mike

[greg]

Yes, even I'm better then these two crackerbots.

for(int i = 0; i < INFINITY; i++) //Saul sets to infinity, everyone else increases the variable
{
    cout << SaulVsSchoenbergDiscussion << "\n";   
}

[Saul]

As I asked you to earlier, Saul, I will believe every word you say about Shocenberg (or Stravinsky) if you are able to take any piece of theirs and point me to these flaws that you keep saying are there. I want objective flaws, since you are talking about objective fact. Not your opinion that they are drivel, that you don't like the harmonies, but musical proof - bad orchestration, bad voice-leading, structural misconceptions, anything at all.

You have a way of ignoring inconvenient posts (like the one I just wrote, with the Brahms quotation in which he baldly stated that Mozart was the greatest of composers, no 'I wish I'd...' or 'unfortunately not by me' (he said that of Strauss) or 'if only I"d known, I'd have done this too' (he said that of Dvorak)....). It would be good to see you engaging with a difficult argument to try to convince others of your views, rather than ignoring those ones and just repeating the same tired old groundless rootless lines, because that convinces no one. Quite the opposite.

Why don't you do it and explain to us objectively why and how anything Stravinsky and Schoenberg composed is any better then the Mendelssohn Symphony No.  1 In C minor composed at 15?

http://www.youtube.com/v/zpgas5hXjEI

[Luke]

Because I'm not the one making the claims that are disputed by everyone else. Except Teresa. So I have no burden of proof.

[DavidW]

for(int i = 0; i < INFINITY; i++) //Saul sets to infinity, everyone else increases the variable
{
    cout << SaulVsSchoenbergDiscussion << "\n";   
}

Greg is your avatar lain?

[Saul]

Because I'm not the one making the claims that are disputed by everyone else. Except Teresa. So I have no burden of proof.

Actually the burden of proof is on you to explain to us why modernist atonal composers are better then not only Mendelssohn but even Schumann, Chopin, Liszt, and the other Romantics, cause I sense, that its not only about Mendelssohn here.

Explain to us how in the world ? How is it possible to even suggest that anything these two composers wrote even comes close to Mendelssohn's C minor Symphony written at 15?

[(poco) Sforzando]

Yes, even I'm better then these two crackerbots.

Saul, you're not even better than Mendelssohn.

[Saul]

Saul, you're not even better than Mendelssohn.

But I bet you are...

[(poco) Sforzando]

But I bet you are...

Aw, what a nice thing to say. Have you figured out what's wrong with that trombone trill yet?

[Saul]

Aw, what a nice thing to say. Have you figured out what's wrong with that trombone trill yet?

No I didn't physically look into the Trombone 

[Josquin des Prez]

Now he's falling into the old fallacy again that Mendelssohn was THE greatest merely because he was the most precocious.

[Luke]

Actually the burden of proof is on you to explain to us why modernist atonal composers are better then not only Mendelssohn but even Schumann, Chopin, Liszt, and the other Romantics, cause I sense, that its not only about Mendelssohn here.

Explain to us how in the world ? How is it possible to even suggest that anything these two composers wrote even comes close to Mendelssohn's C minor Symphony written at 15?

No, Saul, it's not on me to prove anything because actually I haven't said that I think Mendelssohn was a poor composer, as you have of Schoenberg etc. Quite the opposite, I think he was fabulously skillful. I'm not going to look into his compositions for technical flaws because I wouldn't find any - and if I did, knowing his skill, I would assume it was my error, not his. (Perhaps you ought to give Schoenberg a little of the same respect...)

But you've stated that Schoenberg was a bad composer, so I want you to show me where I can see an example of this. Bad composing, remember, not just stuff you don't like.

EDIT - there was another point I wanted to make lol!

Actually the burden of proof is on you to explain to us why modernist atonal composers are better then not only Mendelssohn but even Schumann, Chopin, Liszt, and the other Romantics, cause I sense, that its not only about Mendelssohn here.

It's not about Mendelssohn, or Schumann, or Chopin, or Liszt, or Romantics in general. Mendelssohn is a composer I respect greatly, though I can't think of many pieces of his that I love unreservedly. The other three I adore deeply; Chopin I think is one of the supreme musicians, if forced to pick. Romanticism as a style produced some of the greatest works of music you'll ever hear (including some by Schoenberg). What this is really about isn't these composers who everyone here agrees are great, even if no one apart from you ranks Mendelssohn quite so ridiculously highly; it's about the (relatively) modern ones who, without any convincing description of why, precisely, you are saying wrote drivel and are bad composers.

[Saul]

Now he's falling into the old fallacy again that Mendelssohn was THE greatest merely because he was the most precocious.

Ok forget about the early work, how about Elijah or the Violin Concerto or the Hebrides, can anyone explain to me how anything these two composers wrote even comes close to the awesomeness and grandeur and beauty and greatness of these mature works of Mendelssohn?

[Saul]

No, Saul, it's not on me to prove anything because actually I haven't said that I think Mendelssohn was a poor composer, as you have of Schoenberg etc. Quite the opposite, I think he was fabulously skillful. I'm not going to look into his compositions for technical flaws because I wouldn't find any - and if I did, knowing his skill, I would assume it was my error, not his. (Perhaps you ought to give Schoenberg a little of the same respect...)

But you've stated that Schoenberg was a bad composer, so I want you to show me where I can see an example of this. Bad composing, remember, not just stuff you don't like.

You claim that Schoenberg was greater then Mendelssohn, explain how in the world this could be, please.

[Josquin des Prez]

Hey, maybe i can do this too. Beethoven at 15:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoNyw9dJeOE&feature=related

Now imagine had he been as thoroughly educated as Mendelssohn. Prodigies are so overrated.

[Saul]

Hey, maybe i can do this too. Beethoven at 15:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoNyw9dJeOE&feature=related

Now imagine had he been as thoroughly educated as Mendelssohn.

But did he compose something that comes to 'The Midsummer's Overture' at 17 or the Octet at 16 or the Symphony In C minor at 15?

No.