Mendelssohn vs. Schoenberg

[karlhenning]

Just to state the obvious:

1. The fact that either Teresa or Saul (or both) wrote twelve-tone or atonal exercises, and the result was forgettable, does not invalidate the musical process.

2. The question of Michael Daugherty's artistic worth has nothing to do with that of Schoenberg. (Of course, Sfz understands this without saying.

[greg]

Schoenberg on the other hand, infused a degree of 'intellectuality' in his music, that demands  previous exposure to music, and a professional ear, to really grasp what he is doing with his music.

To what music?

This music therefore effected not the Masses of the people, but only a select few. This kind of music that is limited to such an elite audience, lacks within it something that is completely contrary to what music is, and that is enjoyment.

But I enjoy Schoenberg... oh wait, according to you, I don't. Never mind, I guess you're right.

When all the smoke of arguments is clear, the bottom line is that music is enjoyment, and if the music is not written in a way that will give enjoyment to as many people as possible, then the music itself becomes significantly lower in quality compared to real beautiful music that is experienced and understood and enjoyed by the vast majority of the listens of every background,  and of every level of music understanding.

Yes, everyone I know has Mendelssohn on their iPod.

His music can be experienced and enjoyed instantly by a child, a teen, and an adult simultaneously.

Weird usage of the word "simultaneously..." The same could be said of Schoenberg, btw.

[karlhenning]

Might as well talk to the wall, Greg.

[not edward]

Might as well talk to the wall, Greg.

The wall is both more intelligent and more musically talented.

(I'll stop here before I start channeling M Forever.)

[Saul]

First some people were upset that I didn't give my reason as to why I consider Mendelssohn greater then Schoenberg.
Now that I gave the reason, some people are still upset and try to personalize the discussion with insults.
Where does it end?

Why can't we speak here normally like adults, this is music and we are all musicians or music listeners here that love music dearly, why the attacks? why the insults?


I don't get it.

[karlhenning]

Point well taken, Edward ; )

Schoenberg by a tidy 2:1 ratio now. Sweet! I was listening to some Berg today . . . some Arnold tomorrow.

[greg]

Might as well talk to the wall, Greg.

I can predict Saul's next post:
50/50 chance he posts a video.

50/50 chance he repeats "Mendelssohn is a superior composer. It's a fact. Schoenberg is baaaaaad. He wrote baaaaad music. He makes me sad. Mendelssohn makes me happy. Like a happy walk in the forest on a sunny day. Everyone pretends to like Schoenberg's music because they want to be accepted by this sort of "intellectual crowd." No one really likes his music. If you like his music, you're wrong. And I'm right.

EDIT: ok, maybe not. But it's coming up. 

First some people were upset that I didn't give my reason as to why I consider Mendelssohn greater then Schoenberg.
Now that I gave the reason, some people are still upset and try to personalize the discussion with insults.
Where does it end?

Why can't we speak here normally like adults, this is music and we are all musicians or music listeners here that love music dearly, why the attacks? why the insults?


I don't get it.

Well, for one, you seem to know why I like Schoenberg. Actually, you say I don't really like him and that I'm just deceiving myself. What if I told you that you were deceiving yourself for liking Mendelssohn?
(and I'd never do that, btw)

[Teresa]

I have one major reason why Mendelssohn was greater then Schoenberg,  I will say it, even though I didn't want to give my reason because I already stated a couple of times that this discussion is not worthy , simply because the grandeur and superiority of Mendelssohn over Schoenberg is so awesome and evident in every conceivable way, that giving an explanation and a reason why, is playing into the hands of those who want to use their 'intellectuality' to disrupt reality and make us believe things that are just not true.

Well to the reason then:

Mendelssohn is greater then Schoenberg because he didn't compose music to a select few, minority professional music listeners who would evaluate every single aspect of his music under a microscope.
Even though he had nothing to fear, because he was probably the most technically competent composer ever, still that wasn't his ultimate aim.

Mendelssohn wrote music for the people. His music can be experienced and enjoyed instantly by a child, a teen, and an adult simultaneously. Even though the enjoyment will vary, still the music will enter the soul of all these people and would generate enjoyment, for after all there is no greater value to music then enjoyment, for this its core characteristic.

Schoenberg on the other hand, infused a degree of 'intellectuality' in his music, that demands  previous exposure to music, and a professional ear, to really grasp what he is doing with his music. This music therefore effected not the Masses of the people, but only a select few. This kind of music that is limited to such an elite audience, lacks within it something that is completely contrary to what music is, and that is enjoyment.

Music must be for all people, instantly, experienced widely, and spoken to everyone on their respected level.

To demonstrate this I will take Beethoven's Fur Elise piano piece. This music is so simple, and beautiful, and so open, that a child will understand it on their own level and an adult on their own level too, and they will both connect to it differently, but positively and instantly, they will enjoy it right then and there as soon as the first sounds hit their ears.

I believe that Mendelssohn by sticking to the traditions of the greats, achieved this universality and openness that the Greats before hand achieved.  His Melodies are memorable, one can go with them and take them where ever he or she may be, and sing them and constantly remind themselves of it, keep the music in their hearts and souls for days, cause the music of the Greats with Mendelssohn included was easily absorbed by the human heart and soul.

I believe, that this most essential and pivotal element is missing from Modern composers, where they channel what they want in very blurry and indirect manner, and as a result, the encompassing effect of the music is missing from the wider universal audience, but is only understood by the experienced professional ear. And this to me, is a great flaw in composing music.

When all the smoke of arguments is clear, the bottom line is that music is enjoyment, and if the music is not written in a way that will give enjoyment to as many people as possible, then the music itself becomes significantly lower in quality compared to real beautiful music that is experienced and understood and enjoyed by the vast majority of the listens of every background,  and of every level of music understanding.

Best,

Saul

Fantastic post Saul, one of your best!
I agree totally, music should be something one enjoys listening to, not some technological gobbledygook.  I really wish they would keep this kind of crap inside the University walls and not out in the general public.   

[Saul]

I can predict Saul's next post:
50/50 chance he posts a video.

50/50 chance he repeats "Mendelssohn is a superior composer. It's a fact. Schoenberg is baaaaaad. He wrote baaaaad music. He makes me sad. Mendelssohn makes me happy. Like a happy walk in the forest on a sunny day. Everyone pretends to like Schoenberg's music because they want to be accepted by this sort of "intellectual crowd." No one really likes his music. If you like his music, you're wrong. And I'm right.

EDIT: ok, maybe not. But it's coming up. 

Well, for one, you seem to know why I like Schoenberg. Actually, you say I don't really like him and that I'm just deceiving myself. What if I told you that you were deceiving yourself for liking Mendelssohn?
(and I'd never do that, btw)

You're taking everything out of context and you infer wrong assumptions.

Perhaps you didn't understand what I said, in the thread before, but my comments were very general and simple, and I was not talking about you specifically.

There is a very negative thing going on here, I don't know where it comes from exactly, but its feels like the site is been controled by a close circle of friends here who are constantly on the guard to attack different point of views. Look what you have done to me and Teresa, for thinking otherwise, not only you Greg, but others, you attack us personally, turning us to bad human beings, even though we are good people who love music, and are here only to have fun and enjoy discussing music with others, we don't have secret agendas and ulterior motives, the stuff from the movies.

I'm sorry but this is wrong.

[karlhenning]

BTW, glancing mention of Mendelssohn here.

[Franco]

Fantastic post Saul, one of your best!
I agree totally, music should be something one enjoys listening to, not some technological gobbledygook.  I really wish they would keep this kind of crap inside the University walls and not out in the general public.   

I enjoy listening to Schoenberg, so by your definition it is good music.   One of the differences between us is that I am not compelled to denigrate as a "kind of crap" or "some technological gobbledygook" any music or composer.

[karlhenning]

I enjoy listening to Schoenberg, so by your definition it is good music.

I should indeed suppose that all the people who have voted for Schoenberg, did so partly because we just plain enjoy the music.  We appreciate the beauties of the music.

[Scarpia]

I should indeed suppose that all the people who have voted for Schoenberg, did so partly because we just plain enjoy the music.  We appreciate the beauties of the music.

Speak for yourself.  I received instructions from the GCAS central committee (Global Conspiracy Against Saul) to vote for Schoenberg.   Once my vote has been registered, I am optimistic that my uncle will be released from the GCAS dark prision in Kandahar where he has been held hostage for the last 17 years.

[Saul]

Fantastic post Saul, one of your best!
I agree totally, music should be something one enjoys listening to, not some technological gobbledygook.  I really wish they would keep this kind of crap inside the University walls and not out in the general public.   

Thank you Teresa.

I mean the things are simple, and obvious, if I wanted to exercise my intellectuality, I would go and learn Icelandic...

But music?

I just want to enjoy it...

[PaulR]

I should indeed suppose that all the people who have voted for Schoenberg, did so partly because we just plain enjoy the music.  We appreciate the beauties of the music.

As for the music, I prefer the music of Mendelssohn.  I am not really too fond of Schoenberg's music (At least, not yet).  The reason why I voted him was because of the creation of the 12 tone scale, and the start of the second Vienesse school. 

For instance, I really like Berg's Violin Concerto, and Webern's 4 pieces for Violin and piano.

[greg]

There is a very negative thing going on here, I don't know where it comes from exactly, but its feels like the site is been controled by a close circle of friends here who are constantly on the guard to attack different point of views.

It's a conspiracy. We're a bunch of "intellectuals" and people who don't like "intellectual" music must die! 

Perhaps you didn't understand what I said, in the thread before, but my comments were very general and simple, and I was not talking about you specifically.

EDIT:
[quote author = me]Well, for one, you seem to know why Other Person likes Schoenberg. Actually, you say Other Person doesn't really like him and that Other Person is just deceiving their self.
[/quote]
What's the difference? Other Person deceives himself?

Speak for yourself.  I received instructions from the GCAS central committee (Global Conspiracy Against Saul) to vote for Schoenberg.   Once my vote has been registered, I am optimistic that my uncle will be released from the GCAS dark prision in Kandahar where he has been held hostage for the last 17 years.

lol nice 

[Saul]

I don't know how these colorful things have emerged in the minds of some folks here, but I have made very general and clear comments that deal with the issue head on. Yet, the vast majority of the entire point is neglected, and some other issues which I didn't say are been discussed.

But I thank Teresa, for understanding my article instantly and perfectly.

[Teresa]

I enjoy listening to Schoenberg, so by your definition it is good music.   One of the differences between us is that I am not compelled to denigrate as a "kind of crap" or "some technological gobbledygook" any music or composer.

Very interesting! So you keep everything bottled-up inside, you do realize that is not healthy, don't you?  If you FIRMLY believe something is crap or technological gobbledygook, do you not believe it is beneficial to others to express your honest opinion?  Remember not everyone HAS to agree with your opinions so don't be scared.

I have no trouble with you are anyone else loving the ugly hard dissonance sounds of Schoenberg, I just have an extremely hard time understanding how this is even possible.  My imagination is not good enough to imagine ANYONE, ANYWHERE on Planet Earth not getting violent ill upon hearing the non-music of Schoenberg.  Actually enjoying Schoenberg is just too absurd a concept to contemplate.  You guys have got to be kidding me, surely. 

[Saul]

Very interesting! So you keep everything bottled-up inside, you do realize that is not healthy, don't you?  If you FIRMLY believe something is crap or technological gobbledygook, do you not believe it is beneficial to others to express your honest opinion?  Remember not everyone HAS to agree with your opinions so don't be scared.

I have no trouble with you are anyone else loving the ugly hard dissonance sounds of Schoenberg, I just have an extremely hard time understanding how this is even possible.  My imagination is not good enough to imagine ANYONE, ANYWHERE on Planet Earth not getting violent ill upon hearing the non-music of Schoenberg.  Actually enjoying Schoenberg is just too absurd a concept to contemplate.  You guys have got to be kidding me, surely. 

LOL Teresa you're Great! 

[Brahmsian]

Quickly Teresa, who is your desert island composer?  Mozart or Schoenberg?  Those are your only two options.