Crazy audiophile products

[Heather Harrison]

The room is my greatest problem; the shape of the living room is just not conducive to setting up a good system.  I have done the best that I can given the crummy space, but I don't think I will be able to get my system the way I want it until I move.

With speaker cables, a number of years ago, I was able to get some small improvement when I replaced rather small and inadequate cables with larger ones.  Probably the major contributing factor to speaker cable problems is electrical resistance and power handling on smaller cables.  Resistance per unit length does go up as the cable diameter goes down, so it would make sense to have larger-diameter cables for speakers.  The trick is to find the point of diminishing returns and go there, but no further.  Specialized (expensive) audiophile cables might not be necessary; the ones I have examined exhibit no significant difference from ordinary heavy-gauge household wiring (except for the price).  I could also see shielding and interference being potential problems, but I haven't had such problems on my speaker cables.  Maybe there exist audiophile speaker cables that are shielded and are somehow treated to prevent corrosion of the copper - these could present worthwhile improvements over household wiring.  I haven't really looked that hard because everything is working fine as it is.  (I have had interference problems on other cables - it is important to have high-quality shielded RCA cables in the system and to make sure everything is hooked up tight.)  I am an electrical engineer, but this isn't my area of expertise, so I could be wrong about some things.  I work at microwave and millimeter wave frequencies (3GHz to 50GHz), and what I know there doesn't necessarily translate well to audio frequencies.

Heather

[Greta]

Amazing the $$$$($!) some will spend to achieve that elusive "perfect" sound. We should start a thread for recommending "Affordable Audiophile Products" 

I've just started on the road to getting a decent system, I had a very nice Aiwa bookshelf with a lot of power, whose CD player crapped out on its 10th birthday. I looked at other bookshelf systems, but they're incredibly ugly for the most part, they look like spaceships, with tinny harsh sound.

So I got a Sony SACD/DVD player on the advice of an engineer friend, that uses HDMI and will become the core of my system when I move. And it was only $160 under a deal buying from Sony direct. I'm very happy with it.

But I wonder about the placebo effect, the sound seems to have a little more presence and brightness, but I'm still using the same speakers. Can the CD player actually make a difference in sound?

[Todd]

We should start a thread for recommending "Affordable Audiophile Products"

Can the CD player actually make a difference in sound?

You'd have to define "affordable." 

And yes, the CD player can make a difference in sound quality, though low-fi and mid-fi core electronics won't (can't) reveal the differences.

[71 dB]

Can the CD player actually make a difference in sound?

Yes, much more than cables. A CD player is a complex active system.

[The new erato]

That's a good answer Todd. You need a balanced system to get max sound for your money, a super CD player with mediocre amplification and crappy loudspeakers is a total waste of money. I have a 2000+ USD Sony DVD/SACD/CD, and my 4000 USD Wadia frankly beats the c..p out of it (and of most other players I've auditioned).

71 db's posting about the importance of loudspeakers, room acoustics and loudspeaker/room matching makes a lot of sense though,  it is very good advice starting there.

[Todd]

I have a 2000+ USD Sony DVD/SACD/CD, and my 4000 USD Wadia frankly beats the c..p out of it (and of most other players I've auditioned).

I have a similar situation.  I have a cheap Marantz "universal" player (the DV6400) and even in SACD playback mode it gets spanked by the CD playback of my two Naim CD players (CD3.5 and CDX).  When I've done comparisons in my main rig the differences were more noticeable than in my bedroom rig - better core electronics make a difference, too! 

[Harry]

O, well have it your way 71 dB, I am talking against unbelievers.
If you all are happy with cheap cables so be it, but do not devalue the worth they have for others.
And it has nothing to do with placebo effects. In fact I feel that as a insult to me personally.
So you keep your ways and I mine.

[Greta]

Yes, I'm slowly working on a proper system, I think the next thing I need to get would be a receiver, and those are quite pricey.

Affordable? $500 or under. So besides the SACD player, I need a receiver, and then also an amplifier (and what is a pre-amp?), and then speakers (including a subwoofer?)

Rather daunting when starting from the ground up! 

[The new erato]

Cables matter Harry - though I tend to agree that they matter less than most other parts of the system. I certainly would rather buy a 4000 USD CD player with a 500 USD interconnect, than a 2000 USD player with 2500 USD interconnect. But only if I had similar quality amplification and speakers, and a reasonable listening room.

[Todd]

I need a receiver, and then also an amplifier (and what is a pre-amp?)

Avoid receivers; the sound is always compromised in receivers.  Consider a nice integrated amp - an NAD or Rega or maybe Rotel might work.  For speakers, you'd probably have to go with bookshelf speakers.  I have a pair of B&W DM303 that were $300 when I bought them a few years ago, and they sound quite fine for the money.  You may prefer another type of sound, though.  Avoid sub-woofers as cheap sub-woofers all sound awful and generally aren't really "sub" woofers at all.  Cheap SACD playback won't get you much, so focus on something more geared to CD playback.  (I'm assuming you mean $500 per component; if you mean $500 total, the only way to get really good sound is to buy used equipment.) 

A pre-amp is a necessary component when you get into separates; you need a pre-amp, which basically passes an attenuated signal from a source component to an amp.  If you use a receiver or integrated amp, you don't need a pre-amp.  Generally speaking, separates sound better than all-in-one solutions. 

I certainly would rather buy a 4000 USD CD player with a 500 USD interconnect, than a 2000 USD player with 2500 USD interconnect.

That only makes sense.

[71 dB]

71 db's posting about the importance of loudspeakers, room acoustics and loudspeaker/room matching makes a lot of sense though,  it is very good advice starting there.

Thanks erato. Yes, it makes sense because this is my field of expertise.

O, well have it your way 71 dB, I am talking against unbelievers.
If you all are happy with cheap cables so be it, but do not devalue the worth they have for others.
And it has nothing to do with placebo effects. In fact I feel that as a insult to me personally.
So you keep your ways and I mine.

I'm sorry if my scientific approach is against your beliefs but I can't compromise my knowledge and understanding about the issue just to please certain members. I have a responsibility in advicing people how to invest their money effectively into a sound system.

Cables have very little significance in entry level systems or even normal hifi-systems. In High-End world cables start to play some minor significance. Why? Because High End systems have weirder electrical parameters. The impedance levels are often lower (amplifiers/loudspeakers). That means the cable can affect more to the sound but still the differencies are rather small. So, if you aren't into High End you can pretty much forget the cables. Room acoustics is always important. No matter how expensive or cheap your system is.

[Harry]

Thanks erato. Yes, it makes sense because this is my field of expertise.

I'm sorry if my scientific approach is against your beliefs but I can't compromise my knowledge and understanding about the issue just to please certain members. I have a responsibility in advicing people how to invest their money effectively into a sound system.

Cables have very little significance in entry level systems or even normal hifi-systems. In High-End world cables start to play some minor significance. Why? Because High End systems have weirder electrical parameters. The impedance levels are often lower (amplifiers/loudspeakers). That means the cable can affect more to the sound but still the differencies are rather small. So, if you aren't into High End you can pretty much forget the cables. Room acoustics is always important. No matter how expensive or cheap your system is.

Absolute crap!

[The new erato]

It certainly is true that many high-end loudspeaker system may exhibit significantly more difficult loads than simpler systems, this because of a high number of drivers, complex crossovers or the use of driver technology that is an inherently difficult load (Apogee, Infinity and a number of electrostatics, of which I've owned some, comes to mind). Such loadspeakers will be much more sensitive to amplifier matching, and therefore also to loudspeaker cable characteristics. For signal cables these kind of challenges should be far less.

In my experience most systems which have reasonably good cables can be improved by paying more attention to acoustic matters for a far cheaper sum than by making huge investments in cables, even though I don't doubt that in many cases cable upgrades, provided they are wel matched to the system, also will give an improvement. 

[71 dB]

Absolute crap!

I'm pretty sure critical readers of this thread will find my side of the story more convincing.

[Harry]

I'm pretty sure critical readers of this thread will find my side of the story more convincing.

Good for you my friend.

[Choo Choo]

It certainly is true that many high-end loudspeaker system may exhibit significantly more difficult loads than simpler systems, this because of a high number of drivers, complex crossovers or the use of driver technology that is an inherently difficult load (Apogee, Infinity and a number of electrostatics, of which I've owned some, comes to mind). Such loadspeakers will be much more sensitive to amplifier matching, and therefore also to loudspeaker cable characteristics.

Likewise from the amplifier end: tube amps will generally have a significantly higher output impedance than solid-state, and be more sensitive to load characteristics.  Recently I heard a demo of some molto-expensivo SET monoblocs - which sounded very nice, certainly - but buried in the stats was an output impedance that was high even by tube standards.  Those babies would need very careful partnering.

[71 dB]

Likewise from the amplifier end: tube amps will generally have a significantly higher output impedance than solid-state, and be more sensitive to load characteristics.  Recently I heard a demo of some molto-expensivo SET monoblocs - which sounded very nice, certainly - but buried in the stats was an output impedance that was high even by tube standards.  Those babies would need very careful partnering.

In fact high output impedance makes the cable impedance less significant. "Careful partnering" means amplifier and loudspeakers. When the output impedance is frequency dependent it really makes a difference what kind of load is driven. Short cables have less signicance than long cables.

Entry level systems usually try to sound technically accurate (neutral) while high end systems try to be "warm", "musical", "lively" etc. rather than neutral.

[Harry]

Entry level systems usually try to sound technically accurate (neutral) while high end systems try to be "warm", "musical", "lively" etc. rather than neutral.

That's a load of crap too!

[The new erato]

Entry level systems usually try to sound technically accurate (neutral) while high end systems try to be "warm", "musical", "lively" etc. rather than neutral.

Now THAT is simply plain wrong. High end systems aims for a flattest possible frequency response over a widest possible frequency range with a minimum amount of distortion and a widest possible dynamic range, with a best possible (and well contolled) dispersion pattern (for loudspeakers), while cheaper systems because of cost considerations have to compromise on a lot of these parameters. How this can be considered more neutral simply beats me.

[71 dB]

Good for you my friend.

I don't doubt your insight in High End world but most people don't go even near HE. I have always found High End very unscientific. It's about mystisism. All the crazy audiophile products listed in this thread is a sign of that. Placebo effect doesn't explain all differencies but plays a very big role. It's a know fact the "huge" differencies tend to dissappear/diminish in blind tests. The difficulties people have with Mark's mp3 test is a good exemple of that. Does anyone of us pass the test?