CD prices - particularly Naxos

[The new erato]

Well, I'm afraid the whole argument is moot. I just went through EuropaDisc's catalog, adding everything interesting to my shopping cart. I got to 180 pounds' worth of Naxos CDs, EMI/DG boxes, and DG Originals issues, and then EuropaDisc wiped my entire shopping cart.

They got the policy that you need to log in to save your wish list - if you don't log in the autologout feature after some time decides there's no activity on the site; and there you are.....

Strange and annoying - but they state very clearly that you need to log in to save your wish list.

[Bulldog]

They got the policy that you need to log in to save your wish list - if you don't log in the autologout feature after some time decides there's no activity on the site; and there you are.....

Strange and annoying - but they state very clearly that you need to log in to save your wish list.

That's the problem with keeping your wish list with a 3rd party.

[Brian]

They got the policy that you need to log in to save your wish list - if you don't log in the autologout feature after some time decides there's no activity on the site; and there you are.....

Strange and annoying - but they state very clearly that you need to log in to save your wish list.

Ugh - but it's not even a wishlist but a proper shopping cart!

[Bulldog]

Ugh - but it's not even a wishlist but a proper shopping cart!

Then screw EuropaDisc.  By the way, how many days after creating the shopping cart list did they delete it.

[Brian]

Then screw EuropaDisc.  By the way, how many days after creating the shopping cart list did they delete it.

Maybe an hour tops. I was adding things to it and suddenly it went from however many items (17?) to 2.

[Bulldog]

Maybe an hour tops. I was adding things to it and suddenly it went from however many items (17?) to 2.

Just an hour?  Double-screw them.

[Scarpia]

Are you including shipping or not in your prices? You need the all in cost or else you are comparing apples to oranges.

I don't understand the economics of CD companies at all. They have been claiming that CDs are unprofitable for as long as I can remember. Yet, they all still manage to stay in business. I cannot reconcile these. For example, when Naxos guy says 10-15k, is he including subecribers to the online service or downloaders? I suspect not - and the margin should be higher for those I would think.

The CD in question incurred a $3 shipping charge, that put it at $12.   Before that I got four brand-new CDs from BRO for $32, including shipping (one was an SACD).   More typically I get like-new used CDs, typically $6 + $3 shipping.    The most I have paid is $18 in recent memory, including shipping (that was an import SACD).

Regarding your second point, you appear to be oblivious to what is going on in the world.  Finlandia records is no longer in business, Erato is gone, Philips no longer exists, a few years ago Universal dissolved Decca, which is not a trademark that DG puts on some of it's recordings.  Nimbus and Cappricio also failed and were relaunched after "reorganization."  Telarc became insolvent, was taken over by another record company and the founders have been dismissed from the company.  Classical record companies have been on thin gruel for a long time.

[Scarpia]

Maybe an hour tops. I was adding things to it and suddenly it went from however many items (17?) to 2.

I had a similar incident with Amazon.  I e-mail them and they were able to restore my shopping cart.

[mc ukrneal]

The CD in question incurred a $3 shipping charge, that put it at $12.   Before that I got four brand-new CDs from BRO for $32, including shipping (one was an SACD).   More typically I get like-new used CDs, typically $6 + $3 shipping.    The most I have paid is $18 in recent memory, including shipping (that was an import SACD).

Regarding your second point, you appear to be oblivious to what is going on in the world.  Finlandia records is no longer in business, Erato is gone, Philips no longer exists, a few years ago Universal dissolved Decca, which is not a trademark that DG puts on some of it's recordings.  Nimbus and Cappricio also failed and were relaunched after "reorganization."  Telarc became insolvent, was taken over by another record company and the founders have been dismissed from the company.  Classical record companies have been on thin gruel for a long time.

Hmmm. Even if one accepts that these all went belly up (which is not entirely the case), there are many more that have appeared over the years: Newton, LSO/CSO/[PICK YOUR ORCHETRA] Live, Brilliant, etc. And like any other industry, there are companies that have not survived for various reasons. If you go to MDT, you'll see 10 pages of new releases, which is normally about 7 pages (it being December), which indicates to me that this is not a failing industry.

None of this proves anything though unless we can see the cash flows of these companies. I think Naxos is being somewhat disingenuous when it says that it sells 10-15k, as an example, because it doesn't appear to be including other revenue sources that offset the costs of those discs. Perhaps he wasn;t asked the right question or I am not taking it in context.  But I can only react to what I see. And I see what appears to be a vibrant classical music scene. Perhaps this is an industry on the brink - but forgive me if I seem skeptical as I have heard that for several years now and most companies are still with us.

[Scarpia]

Hmmm. Even if one accepts that these all went belly up (which is not entirely the case), there are many more that have appeared over the years: Newton, LSO/CSO/[PICK YOUR ORCHETRA] Live, Brilliant, etc. And like any other industry, there are companies that have not survived for various reasons. If you go to MDT, you'll see 10 pages of new releases, which is normally about 7 pages (it being December), which indicates to me that this is not a failing industry.

None of this proves anything though unless we can see the cash flows of these companies. I think Naxos is being somewhat disingenuous when it says that it sells 10-15k, as an example, because it doesn't appear to be including other revenue sources that offset the costs of those discs. Perhaps he wasn;t asked the right question or I am not taking it in context.  But I can only react to what I see. And I see what appears to be a vibrant classical music scene. Perhaps this is an industry on the brink - but forgive me if I seem skeptical as I have heard that for several years now and most companies are still with us.

I fail to see what your point is, accept to deny anything I might say.  The fact that record prices are lower has nothing to do with the fact that prices are going up.  The fact that orchestras have started their own labels to pedal their in-house recordings after their recording contracts were all canceled, that proves that recording labels are doing very well.  And two labels (Brilliant and Newton) that issue old recordings licensed from the major labels, who will do anything for a little cash to put on their balance sheet, that also proves that the industry is rolling in money.   

Now I will listen to volume II of Thibaudet's set of Debussy piano works, which I got last week for $8.  I bought volume I when it first came out in the late 90's, for $28.  If I was as smart as you I would realize that the also proves that record prices are going up, but my insight doesn't go that deep, I guess.   

[just Jeff]

The CD in question incurred a $3 shipping charge, that put it at $12.   Before that I got four brand-new CDs from BRO for $32, including shipping (one was an SACD).   More typically I get like-new used CDs, typically $6 + $3 shipping.    The most I have paid is $18 in recent memory, including shipping (that was an import SACD).

Regarding your second point, you appear to be oblivious to what is going on in the world.  Finlandia records is no longer in business, Erato is gone, Philips no longer exists, a few years ago Universal dissolved Decca, which is not a trademark that DG puts on some of it's recordings.  Nimbus and Cappricio also failed and were relaunched after "reorganization."  Telarc became insolvent, was taken over by another record company and the founders have been dismissed from the company.  Classical record companies have been on thin gruel for a long time.

Exactly, and Naxos' product line is basically a budget label (no shame in that), and their income on each sale is way down from what a Telarc, Finlandia, or Decca collected in their respective primes.

It is not simply Classical as a market is on the way out, used CD sales have taken a toll on every kind of music.  The internet made used CD sales and buying a bit easier that making microwave popcorn with butter.

But EMI, Decca, DG, Sony, etc, and all those smaller labels with their $20.00 (and $30 & $40) imports back in the day made their money, they loved their expensive CDs with that "perfect sound forever" and now have had to live with those perfect discs on the used market forever.

It's the way the cookie crumbled, and it's all good, at least good for the consumer of music on CD.

But it is not so good at all for new music, and for recording companies.  The smartest ones like BMG/RCA got out, cashed out, and quit for good.

[CRCulver]

Finlandia records is no longer in business, Erato is gone, Philips no longer exists, a few years ago Universal dissolved Decca, which is not a trademark that DG puts on some of it's recordings.  Nimbus and Cappricio also failed and were relaunched after "reorganization."  Telarc became insolvent, was taken over by another record company and the founders have been dismissed from the company.

One could add to that list. Collegno also failed a couple of years back and was relaunched after reorganization, but they seem to be doing only reissues of their days of glory. Oddly, the founder of Collegno decided to give the record business another try and founded Neos, which is releasing just what Collegno used to. The owner of Chandos has reportedly been trying to sell the label for years and years but is unable to find a buyer. He's drastically refocused the label away from its original aesthetic in an attempt at making a profit.

I think the only labels which are really safe are the national labels, which are heavily subsidized by state arts ministries: Dacapo and Ondine. Kairos probably gets support from Austria as well. Even if they make enormous losses, they can still go on, although they aren't likely to reissue many items once they go out of print.

ECM seems to be doing fine, but Manfred Eicher can use huge hits like Keith Jarrett albums to subsidize those releases that sell less than a thousand copies.

The label that really puzzles me is BIS. It seems much less reliant on Nordic arts funding, but it nonetheless manages to put out uncompromising repertoire. I don't know how Robert von Bahr does it.

[Scarpia]

It's the way the cookie crumbled, and it's all good, at least good for the consumer of music on CD.

Certainly good in the short term.  In the long term, there are questions.  Oddly the big orchestras are recording less and the little orchestras are recording more.  You could argue that the performances of the truly first-rate ensembles and performers are not being documented as well as they once were.

[mc ukrneal]

The fact that record prices are lower has nothing to do with the fact that prices are going up. 

Well, if you're goal was to confuse me, consider it met!

You know, I wasn't trying to argue with you about this nor even get into this discussion. All I was really trying to discuss was the odd and quiet way that Amazon changed its prices of Naxos. But this has led to the health of the industry. And here all I am trying to say is that I have been reading about the demise of classical recording for some time. Well, it's still here. Is it healthy? I have no idea - but the recordings keep coming in a consistent stream. And if the companies do poorly, they will go out of business and fewer CDs will be available. And that will tell us everything we need to know.

[Brian]

I think the only labels which are really safe are the national labels, which are heavily subsidized by state arts ministries: Dacapo and Ondine.

Naxos bought Ondine, actually.

[just Jeff]

Certainly good in the short term.  In the long term, there are questions.  Oddly the big orchestras are recording less and the little orchestras are recording more.  You could argue that the performances of the truly first-rate ensembles and performers are not being documented as well as they once were.

They might be forced to release only fresh works, and not more of the same Symphonies and other works recorded dozens of times already.  They are compeating with the previous works in the history of recorded music, not only what is available as new, but everything on CD that is also available as used product to say nothing of old vinyl out there.

Nobody ever said life gets easier.  But hey, the music market is mature, and not a new growing industry.  Time to sit back and enjoy what is out there, and not worry about the year is was recorded or what year it was issued, just enjoy, and there is plenty to enjoy.  I'm not such a big fan or Naxos, as there are already enough other strong labels I have not listened to with great great things.

[CRCulver]

Naxos bought Ondine, actually.

But many of Ondine's expenses are still paid by the Finnish state.