Yet another ignorant question - Keys

[Palmetto]

No, luckily for you I was not suggesting that you "learn" an instrument, just that seeing and feeling how the notes relate to each other in a physical form might be useful.

There must be some browser-based virtual keyboards you can look at online. Using that, just pick out some notes, so you can "see" what a chord looks like. Pick out a tune you know. If the keys are labelled, even better; that way, the notes A, B, C, D, E, F, G etc won't just be abstract ideas you are trying to get your head around. They'll be right there lined up in front of you for you to see.

Please don't get a tin whistle, for the sake of my ears.

I can intellectually relate a given note or chord name to a sound without much trouble; ditto the written note on a staff.  westknife linked to a virtual keyboard earlier in this discussion but it appeared capable of only a single note or chord a t a time.  I played around with it but don't know that I really got much out of it.  He (or she?) suggested I use it to identify a note by comparing one I've heard with one I generate with the app.  Beyond that, I'm not sure what I should be getting from such an exercise.  I now recognize that as the source of my reluctance to lay hands on an instrument - I don't see how doing so will further my exploration.  I already get that notes ascend.  What exactly am I supposed to be paying attention to besides the mechanics of generating a given sound?

Another point I'm having trouble with is why some notes are have sharps / flats in between while others don't.  C to D is a whole step, with a half step from C to the sharp in between; why is E to F half with nothing in the middle?

I appreciated the tin whistle piece Grazioso linked to, but it isn't an instrument I'd care to hear on daily basis either.  I suspect it would disturb the cat, my wife would probably make me go outside with it, and that would run the birds off from my feeders.  At least the virtual keyboard doesn't annoy anyone outside my headphones.

[Grazioso]

Please don't get a tin whistle, for the sake of my ears.

It's only bad when you get into the third octave: then it's like having someone blow a police whistle right in your face--not that I would no about that  Fortunately little of the music goes that high. It has roughly the same range as a soprano recorder.

Another point I'm having trouble with is why some notes are have sharps / flats in between while others don't.  C to D is a whole note, with a half note from C to the sharp in between; why is E to F half with nothing in the middle?

That's one of those "just because, so live with it" things in music Not being flippant. B to C and E to F are half steps, the others all whole.

One thing that might help with recognizing key changes is recognizing chord changes, which is, from the perspective of perception, not much different in that a new set of notes gets emphasized. Try it with an rock/pop song you know well. Just Google the name of the song and "chords", and you'll find links to chord-lyric sheets that show you what chords are sounding (either expressly or implied by the notes of the vocal melody + bass, etc.) as the words come. Here's an example:

http://www.youtube.com/v/tkJNyQfAprY

Starts out minor (gloomy, melancholy), repeating a chord sequence of Bm (i.e. B minor) to A through a quick descent to Em.

At 0:53, switches to major (more positive, happy sounding), going D A D A

1:08 stays in major, going C G C G

1:23 goes D A D A

1:38 C G C G again

1:54 (final line of the chorus) A C G D

repeats much of the above under the first solo

2:46 after first solo, returns to the initial minor chord sequence

the song cycles through these sequences a few times, ending with an extended sequence of those first chords in minor under the long outro solo.

NB the tempo is quite slow, so the changes take a while to happen.

This might be helpful, too:

http://www.chordbook.com/guitarchords.php

It'll let you hear different types of chords. It's one thing to say a G7 chord (versus a plain G chord ) has a strong pull to a C chord. But hearing it makes it more obvious.

[Luke]

That's one of those "just because, so live with it" things in music Not being flippant. B to C and E to F are half steps, the others all whole.

That's right, and it isn't a flippant answer, no. That issue can be explained, but to do so would open up quite a few other questions which aren't really relevant to the more pressing issues of how music works, and which are quite confusing too.

[Szykneij]

That's right, and it isn't a flippant answer, no. That issue can be explained, but to do so would open up quite a few other questions which aren't really relevant to the more pressing issues of how music works, and which are quite confusing too.

Perhaps this is where visualizing a piano keyboard would be helpful. "B and C" and "E and F" are the white keys that don't have black keys between them.

[Palmetto]

That's one of those "just because, so live with it" things in music Not being flippant. B to C and E to F are half steps, the others all whole.

That's not a problem.  It means I can stop trying to figure it out why.

[Palmetto]

Perhaps this is where visualizing a piano keyboard would be helpful. "B and C" and "E and F" are the white keys that don't have black keys between them.

Yeah, but that just leads back to, "But WHY don't they have black keys between them?", or more properly, "Why is there only a half step between them?"

I have no problem accepting "That's just the way it is" as an answer.  Rightly or wrongly, that's often the only answer available to many questions.

[Scarpia]

Yeah, but that just leads back to, "But WHY don't they have black keys between them?", or more properly, "Why is there only a half step between them?"

I have no problem accepting "That's just the way it is" as an answer.  Rightly or wrongly, that's often the only answer available to many questions.

It all goes back to early church music, where the scales were arrived at.  But it is not entirely arbitrary. Musical tones blend well when their frequencies have a simple ratio, and this way of stepping, full tone, full tone, half tone, full tone, full tone, full tone, half tone, allows you to include in your scale an array of tones which have simple ratios and sound pleasant when played together. 

[petrarch]

Yeah, but that just leads back to, "But WHY don't they have black keys between them?", or more properly, "Why is there only a half step between them?"

It all started in the 11th century, when the solmization system was invented.

[71 dB]

I have difficulties to see music as chords. Here are some questions that boggles my mind:

- Doesn't a triad chord mean that 3 notes start and stop at the same time (making up that triad)? Doesn't that lead to rhythmically simple music?

- What does it mean if the notes of a triad end at different times (changing to other notes while making the music rhythmically more interesting)? Just a series of different chords?

- Doesn't the notes of successive triads from three simultaneous melodies? how are melodies separated from all the notes that are going on in all the chords? Highest pitch? Loudest notes? I can ask this the other way around: if I have a melody, how do I harmonize it into chords?

- How does a "improvised" fast (say guitar solo) relate to the chords in music?

- Why do composers take time preparing the change of key? Isn't it rather simple just using one "transitional chord" that contains the common notes of the two keys? What exactly are they preparing so long?

I have tried to learn music theory but it is very frustrating. It always gives too simple/vague answers in extremely complicated way and I never find answers to questions like what I asked above.  In time I have understood some things* but I will die of age before understanding enough at this rate!   Maybe I try to understand music theory too mathematically...


* For years I wondered what is the difference between C major and A minor scales as they have the same notes. Then I realized that they are the same only in equal tuning. In other tuning systems the notes have slightly different frequencies. 

[karlhenning]

I have difficulties to see music as chords. Here are some questions that boggles my mind:

- Doesn't a triad chord mean that 3 notes start and stop at the same time (making up that triad)? Don't that lead to rhytmically simple music?

No, the rhythmic use/deployment of the triad do not alter the nature of the triad.

- How does a "improvised" fast (say guitar solo) relate to the chords in music?

How does rapid violin figuration relate to the chord(s)?

- Why do composers take time preparing the change of key? Isn't it rather simple just using one "transitional chord" that contains the common notes of the two keys? What exactly are they preparing so long?

Actually, it seems to me that there is a range, from lengthy preparation, to abrupt change.  That is part of the art of the compositional process.

* For years I wondered what is the difference between C major and A minor scales as they have the same notes. Then I realized that they are the same only in equal tuning.

And so what have you concluded about what the difference is between C Major and a minor?

[71 dB]

No, the rhythmic use/deployment of the triad do not alter the nature of the triad.

Nature = consonance? If I have a C - E - G triad and then the E notes changes to D# while C and G notes keep playing I have two triads. The first is a major chord and the second is a minor chord. Now, where is my melody? G note? E and D# notes? C note?

How does rapid violin figuration relate to the chord(s)?

That's what I want to understand. I hope that composing my own music makes me find the answers (if they are not revealed here by musically wise people).

Actually, it seems to me that there is a range, from lengthy preparation, to abrupt change.  That is part of the art of the compositional process.

Yes. Maybe we should call the lengthy ones just musical development rather than preparation of key change?

And so what have you concluded about what the difference is between C Major and a minor?

As I said, different frequencies of notes.

One more question: How do Major key and minor key compotitions relate to Major and minor chords? It's easy to make up a minor chord using the notes of C Major scale: D - F - A   

[Palmetto]

Here are some questions that boggles my mind:

Boy, and here I thought I was confused!

[71 dB]

Boy, and here I thought I was confused!

It seems some people have a natural talent to understand the meaning of music theory. The rest of us are doomed to live in confusion! 

[karlhenning]

Nature = consonance?

Not here; I simply mean that a C major triad is C/E/G no matter how the chord is voiced, no matter how it is "rhythmically activated" . . . there are contexts where it can even be implied by just two members of the triad.

Yes. Maybe we should call the lengthy ones just musical development rather than preparation of key change?

It can be a fine balance . . . there can be a momentary suggestion of a different key, or it can be a "full commitment" to establishing a new key area for substantial activity.

One more question: How do Major key and minor key compotitions relate to Major and minor chords? It's easy to make up a minor chord using the notes of C Major scale: D - F - A

Well, to take your instance, the d minor triad functions as the ii chord in the key of C Major, as the i chord in d minor, as the iv chord in a minor, as the iii chord in B^b Major . . . .

[71 dB]

Not here; I simply mean that a C major triad is C/E/G no matter how the chord is voiced, no matter how it is "rhythmically activated" . . . there are contexts where it can even be implied by just two members of the triad.

In "complex/flexible" music there are simultaneous melody lines having differing rhytmic patterns (polyrhythm). These melody lines together form momentary chords. If we look at things from this angle, a momentary C/E/G triad looks like a "coincidence", a musical car-crash if you will. The theory of chords as such doesn't lead to melodic music, it leads to harmonic music. That is what irritates me most about music theory, it always seems to focus on VERY narrow area of music.   

It can be a fine balance . . . there can be a momentary suggestion of a different key, or it can be a "full commitment" to establishing a new key area for substantial activity.

A few days ago I recorded some chords I played on Midi keyboard controlling Roland JV-1010 module. I have those wav-files on my computer and I will use them in my next work, once I have finished my current ambient project. The chords are:

C/E/G + A# played lower
C/E/G + A player lower
F/A/C + F player lower
G/B/D + G played lower
G/C/D + E played lower
G/A#/D + D played lower
C/D#/G + C played lower

Interesting to see what I can do with these and how much I can learn in the process.

Well, to take your instance, the d minor triad functions as the ii chord in the key of C Major, as the i chord in d minor, as the iv chord in a minor, as the iii chord in B^b Major . . . .

Yes.

[Scarpia]

In "complex/flexible" music there are simultaneous melody lines having differing rhytmic patterns (polyrhythm). These melody lines together form momentary chords. If we look at things from this angle, a momentary C/E/G triad looks like a "coincidence", a musical car-crash if you will. The theory of chords as such doesn't lead to melodic music, it leads to harmonic music. That is what irritates me most about music theory, it always seems to focus on VERY narrow area of music.   

That is the art of writing contrapuntal music, writing melody lines which 'by coincidence' form interesting harmonies.  Music theory isn't a recipe for writing music so much as a language for describing musical 'events' so that you can talk about them, learn from them and use them again.

[71 dB]

That is the art of writing contrapuntal music, writing melody lines which 'by coincidence' form interesting harmonies.

Exactly. That's why I like Bach's fugues so much. 

I don't have a clue what chords are formed "by coincidence" but it all sounds awesome to me.

Music theory isn't a recipe for writing music so much as a language for describing musical 'events' so that you can talk about them, learn from them and use them again.

Agreed.

[Palmetto]

Music theory isn't a recipe for writing music so much as a language for describing musical 'events' so that you can talk about them, learn from them and use them again.

Well now, that explains a heck of a lot.  I've been reading from the wrong (or at least limited) viewpoint.

[Grazioso]

Well, to take your instance, the d minor triad functions as the ii chord in the key of C Major, as the i chord in d minor, as the iv chord in a minor, as the iii chord in B^b Major . . . .

That's just mean 

- Doesn't the notes of successive triads from three simultaneous melodies? how are melodies separated from all the notes that are going on in all the chords? Highest pitch? Loudest notes? I can ask this the other way around: if I have a melody, how do I harmonize it into chords?

That's a question that whole books get written about, but basically, the shifts in the highest or lowest notes between the successive chords can be regulated into perceivable melodies or bass lines by carefully choosing your chords. E.g.,

http://www.youtube.com/v/ADSb5cFNseA

- How does a "improvised" fast (say guitar solo) relate to the chords in music?

Another "book question" Nutshell: chords and scales are interrelated, with chords built from scales. So certain scales contain the same notes as certain chords. A C major scale sounds good over a C major triad (CDEFGAB over a chord with CEG, or more conservatively just the notes CEG over the CEG chord, both sharing the same root/tonic), Lydian mode (FGABCDE) over a maj7#11 chord (FACEB), (the sharp 4 of the Lydian mode is equivalent of the sharp 11 of the chord, what would be just a half step in the basic major/Ionian has been bumped up half-step, A to B--think I got that right!), etc.

This is why you should bow down before any jazz musician  Those folks need to have a huge store of knowledge to be able to reharmonize or improvise lead lines without it sounding like crap. And in jazz, the chord and key changes often come at a lightning pace.

* For years I wondered what is the difference between C major and A minor scales as they have the same notes. Then I realized that they are the same only in equal tuning. In other tuning systems the notes have slightly different frequencies. 

Well, they're the same notes, yes, but the emphasis is different. Start a melody on C, move up D, then to E, you get two whole steps, implying major. Start on A, move up to B, then to C, you get a whole then half step, which implies minor. And when you harmonize the scales, you get very different results: your I chord for C major is CEG=C major. For A minor, your I chord is ACE=A minor and so on down the line.

[Grazioso]

Music theory isn't a recipe for writing music so much as a language for describing musical 'events' so that you can talk about them, learn from them and use them again.

I'll defer to the actual composers here, but I believe theory also helps one generate music. You might come up with a good-sounding chord progression at random, but it might be easier if you understand the accepted "rules" of harmony and work from there.