Make a Jazz Noise Here

[jowcol]

I don't even like the word "jazz" to be honest, it's absolutely meaningless if you think about it, it's just a tag that has stuck but .. and i  never really think about music in those manufactured terms at all. It's all music.

So, I guess if I look through the history of this thread, I won't see any generalizations about "jazz" vs "classical", and certainly no references to "art music" right, since those are arbitrary tags? And anyone that tried to draw a distinction between the two is still a couple rebirths short of Nirvana?

If it was anyone else, I'd invoke the words of the Great One and say

be careful not to contradict yourself with bullshit now ...

But in your case, it is clear that you are trying to lead us to a higher state of zen and decontextualize us with a brilliant paradox, and therefore I applaud you for your efforts. It is indeed a lonely and unappreciated path to continually place such pearls of wisdom before swine, but I for one an eternally grateful.

[Mirror Image]

For my money, it's hard to beat some of Horace Silver's late 50s and early 60s recordings. The guy simply knew how to swing and pick the right musicians to play with.

[escher]

I don't even like the word "jazz" to be honest, it's absolutely meaningless if you think about it, it's just a tag that has stuck but

jazz (unlike "art music") instead is a useful definition. It identifies the american tradition that merges blues, swing (that like blues is a characteristic that didn't exist in classical world, and swing is clearly not just syncopation, the syncopated part of the piano sonata 111 of beethoven for example is not swing) and improvisation.  Clearly in jazz (as in classical music) there are a lot of things, but jazz has this meaning.

[escher]

all 'tags' are meaningless ..

yeah, next time you go in a restaurant ask for a generic "food". Tags are meaningless.

[escher]

I was talking music.

But you're forgetting that there's good art music, and there's artless music like jazz or blues and the other musical styles.

[karlhenning]

all 'tags' my posts are meaningless ..

Fixed.

[jowcol]

Elitism / elites is like some awful dirty word that gets bandied around by politically correct automatons. My perspective is that if it weren't for elites, we'd all be in the gutter, except there wouldn't be a gutter to be in because cause the idea of a gutter quite probably originated from an elite.

With the recent mentions of "genius" and "politically correct automatons", and some similar reasoning patterns,  I can't help wondering.  Could James and JDP be the same person? As anyone seen them in the same room at the same time?

[karlhenning]

Obfuscation and James . . . it's like, Abbot & Costello, Damon & Pytheas . . . .

[Grazioso]

I'm amazed by the tortured mental contortionism going on here. Better than Cirque du Soleil 

western art music is like a giant musical ocean that has existed for centuries tho

That's fine - most people these days prefer the 'pop' music of today than to serious music...

Art music includes the whole gamut tho

all 'tags' are meaningless ..

Erase the 'tags' and you can pit the musical results of all music against each other and compare it's qualities.

No more "serious higher-minded/consciousness art music" for you, then 

Hmm, let's compare some qualities! Boulez=doesn't swing. Sonny Clark=swings! Sonny Clark wins!

[Grazioso]

If James had his way, you would enter a library and all the books would be piled up on tables in no apparent order.

You're giving him undue credit for holding some sort of consistent, coherent philosophical stance. In reality, you would enter the library and find a pile labeled "James is under the impression this stuff is good" and then the rest of the library.

[jowcol]

I'm amazed by the tortured mental contortionism going on here. Better than Cirque du Soleil 

No more "serious higher-minded/consciousness art music" for you, then 

Hmm, let's compare some qualities! Boulez=doesn't swing. Sonny Clark=swings! Sonny Clark wins!

Not dusty old quotes!  How dare you!  You're almost as bad as Jowcol!

[jowcol]

You're giving him undue credit for holding some sort of consistent, coherent philosophical stance. In reality, you would enter the library and find a pile labeled "James is under the impression this stuff is good" and then the rest of the library.

Although, I'd say that I'd doubt that any of us have a consistent, coherent philosophical stance, and our personal preferences are riddled with exceptions.  What is really so fascinating  is when someone assumes some objective standard in using such subjective terms, and
and elevates the "did not" "did too" debate into the 21st century equivalent of the dialogs of Socrates.

And, I'd also say, I'd probably like a lot of the stuff that ends up in "James in under the impression this stuff is good" pile.

[Grazioso]

Not dusty old quotes!  How dare you!  You're almost as bad as Jowcol!

Venerable Master, I beg forgiveness! I will clean the Zendo toilets and pray to Amida for Enlightenment! 

Although, I'd say that I'd doubt that any of us have a consistent, coherent philosophical stance, and our personal

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.--Emerson

And, I'd also say, I'd probably like a lot of the stuff that ends up in "James in under the impression this stuff is good" pile.

Sure, it's not a question of taste. Rather, it's a question of confusing personal taste with objective facts, logical and consistent modes of categorization, etc.

[escher]

Not really .. you can approach, listen-to and compare any music, the tags (and thats what they are) are not necessary in doing that.

Ok. If tags are not important there is any album/composition/music outside the classical world that you put on the same level of the best classical music?

[Grazioso]

A few things to consider:

Not really .. you can approach, listen-to and compare any music, the tags (and thats what they are) are not necessary in doing that.

Yes, you can listen to any music, but as soon as you compare it, values come into play. When that happens, is your comparison going to be based solely on subconscious prejudices--on gut reactions--or on explicit, considered criteria that form a consistent and clear means of comparison and valuation? That's a foundation of criticism: posit foundational principles, rules, and standards, cite evidence, and determine whether the evidence fits the principles or breaks them.

And the serious musicians themselves often hate them and pay no mind to them (as they do their thing), because they confine and pigeonhole what they do, and creates a stigma to the public out there that consumes music. It does more harm

Like using a nebulous concept such as "higher-consciousness art"? Or "serious musicians"? (Are there a lot of flippant musicians out there? "Yeah, I just play a few random notes once in a while if I'm in the mood. Whatever.")

than good. With music, from the inside-out it's best to approach it at a more base level, the rawer material, the nuts & bolts, the result, ..

Then, it follows that one must be a subject-matter expert to act as judge: a composer, musician, theorist, historian.

[escher]

.. I love a lot of music (), but nothing really touches best higher consciousness music, it's the pinnacle human achievement of all things music.

yeah, i agree with that. An example of higher consciousness music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH41odNr-Aw

first time i agree.

[escher]

andrew hill is one of my very favorite musicians and for sure a great example of higher consciousness music. 
I think that also Andrew!!! and Compulsion!!!!!! are incredible albums.

[escher]

Yes those are two more great ones, but I couldn't list all of them -  - I tried to put the ones I thought the best introduction.  He is quite unique among jazz musicians and deceptively complex with his playing and writing.

I agree also with the comparison with Shorter obviously, but why do you consider "less architectural" than Taylor? It's a bit strange but i have to say that i've always thought his angular music exactly as a good musical counterpart of the american modernist architecture.

[Grazioso]

Sure (and I agree with the last part esp.) .. but I honestly believe that you can discuss any music without the tags - and just jump to it's qualities on a basic level.

But it's the commonality of qualities on a basic level (I assume you mean musical characteristics) that help give rise to the labels/categories. A characteristic trait of what we call Baroque music, for example, is the basso continuo. Swing feel is one part of what leads to the conceptual category of jazz. The danger is when someone takes those traits or definitions too rigidly and says that jazz must swing, or music isn't Baroque if there's no continuo, which would lead to silly situations. It's a question of family resemblances (a la Wittgenstein), not rigid dichotomies.

You regularly employ tags like "higher consciousness music" or "art music." Are you not contradicting your own admonition? And what are the basic musical qualities that define these categories?

Some potential problems with discussing music without labels and focusing solely on its musical qualities:

a) Most people don't have the musical knowledge/experience to perceive, analyze, and discuss (or judge) music on a nuts-and-bolts level. "Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen." Whereof one cannot speak, one must be silent.
b) To judge, you have to privilege certain elements or techniques; how do you decide? Plus, musical interpretation is just that: interpretation. For example, one person might analyze a chord progression one way, with someone else offering a different valid interpretation.

[jowcol]

For some reason, I've been in need of Late Trane. 

For some reason, I really like what my be Coltrane's most reviled work-- OM.  Supposedly, he was dropping acid during the session, and "perceived the interrelationship of all life forms."  It starts with a chant from the Bagavhad Gita, and is pretty much a fluid free jam with totally off the hook solos and periods of texture that finally comes back to the orginal chant.  Pharaoh Sanders is so far out it is pretty horrifying-- he makes Trane's playing seem rather tame.  When he comes in, he simply unleashes a torrent of wild, tortured animal sounds and screams through his sax.

I originally hated this-- it was my second Trane album, and not what I expect. However, I got really sick with a 103 degree fever and the music kept playing in my head.  I'm not sure if I'd call it higher consciousness music-- it's more visceral and primeval to me, but I love it now.

Anyway, the following link covers the first half of the album.  The handoff from Trane's solo starts around 7:15, and the "Scream" comes about a minute later.
http://www.youtube.com/v/WyXFBohVmr8&page#t=438s


Probably the most accessible Late Trane came from the same time.  Kulu Se Mama used two african percussionists and a vocalists.  It's more lyrical-- although there is still some overblowing and craziness going on, but wrapped around a driving pulse.   This was also probably the best McCoy Tyner solo in the late works-- he left soon afterword, as there didn't seem to be much room for him in works like Ascension  or Meditations.  But the Kulu Se Mama has a solid piano solo if you like McCoy.  (And for me, the biggest reason I listen to Trane is to here the dialog between McCoy and Elvin-- it took me a while to start paying attention to Trane's solos.)   For some reason there doesn't seem to be a post on Youtube. Bummer.