Soprano Warbling

[Tsaraslondon]

I've stayed out of this discussion till now because I get so fed up of people mixing up vibrato and wobble. Vibrato is the life blood of a voice and, most singers of all ranges use it, particularly in music of the nineteenth century onwards. Why? Because as the orchestras got larger and louder, it became necessary to vibrate the tone in order to be heard through the orchestral texture. You may prefer the white, pure sound of an Emma Kirkby, but she would never be able to sing nineteenth century opera. She just wouldn't be heard. Schwarzkopf talks about this in John Steane's book Schwarzkopf: A Career on Record. She says that she did not have a large voice (certainly not as large as her admired colleagues Irmgard Seefried and Christa Ludwig), and that, when singing operatic music of the nineteenth and twentieth century, it became necessary to vibrate the sound more so that she could be heard. She makes a clear distinction between vibrating and pushing the voice, for, if you push the voice, you are more likely to develop a wobble. ZB, I'm sure you could back me up on this. It was a device she used altogether more chastely in the music of Mozart and in Lieder. Even at the very end of her career, though the voice has dried out a bit, there is never a trace of wobble in Schwarzkopf's tone. She clearly knew what she was talking about.

Of course Callas, my favourite singer is often accused of an excess of vibrato, but, here too, this is a misapprehension. Later in her career, certainly, the voice developed a wobble, either because of the weight loss, which hindered her support, or through faulty training (there are a million theories and I doubt we will ever really know the reason), but early in her career she was admirably secure and, like Schwarzkopf, used vibrato as and when the music requires. She uses vibrato far more in the famous Tosca recording of 1953,  for instance, than in I Puritani, recorded at the same time. And, incidentally, when listening to the live Anna Bolena of 1957, we find, when comparing her with her colleague Giulietta Simionato, that it is Callas's voice that has the cleaner attack and keener focus.

So, give me vibrato, not an excess of it certainly, but yes I like it.

[Musician]

how about this?

http://youtu.be/2i-H24idN1Q

[Guido]

I've stayed out of this discussion till now because I get so fed up of people mixing up vibrato and wobble. Vibrato is the life blood of a voice and, most singers of all ranges use it, particularly in music of the nineteenth century onwards. Why? Because as the orchestras got larger and louder, it became necessary to vibrate the tone in order to be heard through the orchestral texture. You may prefer the white, pure sound of an Emma Kirkby, but she would never be able to sing nineteenth century opera. She just wouldn't be heard. Schwarzkopf talks about this in John Steane's book Schwarzkopf: A Career on Record. She says that she did not have a large voice (certainly not as large as her admired colleagues Irmgard Seefried and Christa Ludwig), and that, when singing operatic music of the nineteenth and twentieth century, it became necessary to vibrate the sound more so that she could be heard. She makes a clear distinction between vibrating and pushing the voice, for, if you push the voice, you are more likely to develop a wobble. ZB, I'm sure you could back me up on this. It was a device she used altogether more chastely in the music of Mozart and in Lieder. Even at the very end of her career, though the voice has dried out a bit, there is never a trace of wobble in Schwarzkopf's tone. She clearly knew what she was talking about.

Of course Callas, my favourite singer is often accused of an excess of vibrato, but, here too, this is a misapprehension. Later in her career, certainly, the voice developed a wobble, either because of the weight loss, which hindered her support, or through faulty training (there are a million theories and I doubt we will ever really know the reason), but early in her career she was admirably secure and, like Schwarzkopf, used vibrato as and when the music requires. She uses vibrato far more in the famous Tosca recording of 1953,  for instance, than in I Puritani, recorded at the same time. And, incidentally, when listening to the live Anna Bolena of 1957, we find, when comparing her with her colleague Giulietta Simionato, that it is Callas's voice that has the cleaner attack and keener focus.

So, give me vibrato, not an excess of it certainly, but yes I like it.

I've just listened again to Schwarzkopf's Strauss songs with orchestra. I dislike the way she sometimes pares the sound down so much that its just a wavery little strand of voice. Probably just a taste thing - do others like this? It's so odd, because in Arabella and Rosenkavalier the voice is so beautiful. Actually I love her best of all in Ariadne because she's doing exactly what you mention - she uses more vibrato to be heard in this heavier role, and finally there's no risk of the sound being anaemic or fluttery.

I remember finding this whole discussion bizarre. Vibrato is the sound!

[knight66]

In Ariadne we have an aria, 'Es gibt ein Reich', that is almost Wagnerian in amplitude and it needs a good deal of tone applied to it. But in Strauss's songs, we do get quite a variety of approach from 'Befreit' which takes exactly the approach needed in 'Es gibt', to very intimate salon songs which were initially written to be accompanied by piano and only orchestrated later.

Which songs in particular do you mean? I have the EMI Szell/Schwarzkopf Four Last Songs disc that now includes 14 other songs and I assume you are referring to something from that disc.

Mike

[Guido]

In Ariadne we have an aria, 'Es gibt ein Reich', that is almost Wagnerian in amplitude and it needs a good deal of tone applied to it. But in Strauss's songs, we do get quite a variety of approach from 'Befreit' which takes exactly the approach needed in 'Es gibt', to very intimate salon songs which were initially written to be accompanied by piano and only orchestrated later.

Which songs in particular do you mean? I have the EMI Szell/Schwarzkopf Four Last Songs disc that now includes 14 other songs and I assume you are referring to something from that disc.

Mike

I think she sounds more beautiful as Ariadne than anywhere else. I love lyric voices in this part. Fleming's doing it in Baden Baden next Feb, and Glyndebourne are doing it in 2013 (as a leaving present for Jurowski) with Isokoski.

The one I'm thinking of most is Waldseligkeit - one of my favourite Strauss orchestral songs, here marred by the affected tone. It's trying to be "innig" and I'm sure lots of people love it, but I don't like the sound at all. Try comparing it to Fleming's account of the song on the earlier Four Last Songs CD(the one with Eschenbach) which to me is one of the most beautiful things that she has committed to disc. Fleming of course is the absolute mistress of high pianissimo singing (and it's never for showing off as Caballé was guilty of, much though I admire her), but there are so many gorgeous little details in it where she colours the voice - near the end: the word "Eigen" with that intense vibrato before the almost hallucinatory floating beauty of "ganz nur dein". I know Fleming is a contentious example to choose because she is accused of being shallow and affected, but I've never bought that in her German repertoire singing. These things are all very personal of course, but just wanted to point out the risks of the other side of the issue - not using enough vibrato.

To me, more offensive than wide vibrato, is slow vibrato, and the two often get confused in descriptions. Often of course they go together, especially in the case of a "wobble". It's why I tend to prefer lyric to dramatic voices (with some obvious exceptions).

[knight66]

I have been back and forth between them and like them both. It is possibly a matter of swings and roundabouts and mainly about chosen approach. I agree that Fleming makes more of that phrase 'Da bin ich ganz dein eigen' moving more surely towards 'eigen' being the climax of the phrase. But.....on the final line she needs to take one more breath than Schwarzkopf and the latter manages more expression in the lower phrases of the song. Fleming sounds a little bit like she is beefing those phrases up to attain acceptable tone there.

But as I suggest elsewhere, this is not a competition and I think they are both great. I can see what you don't like with the near white tone of Schwarzkopf and agree her concept was about drawing you in deploying 'innig'. She was 51 when she recorded it and appreciably older than Fleming. So who knows what may have been compromise or choice over how it was sung. One thing for sure, there would have been take after take of it until her very exacting husband got what he wanted out of it.

Mike

[Harry Powell]

The famous song recital by Schwarzkopf and Szell is a disappointing record. One can feel how much edition was made to highlight Frau Legge's voice over the orchestra. And then all her mannerisms, exaggerated "vibratoless" tones, the disagreeable dryness in the timbre...

Scotto developed a wobble by the end of the Seventies. Before she began abusing her voice, it had an awesome sheen and a natural vibrato which gave her tones a special intensity.

The banning of vibrato has become another dogma of modern singing. I know it must be carefully used in Lieder, but its lack creates clonal white voices. I'm such a PEST, but I have to insist on listening to early records. Lemnitz, Leider, Teschemacher, Reining,... They all were more generous with vibrato than "LP singers".

Harry.

[knight66]

I think you are being harsh on her. But there have always been two schools of thought over her inability to find the art that covers art.

The original Szell disc only had the Four Last Songs and I think five others. The remaining songs were recorded several years later.

Mike

[zamyrabyrd]

The banning of vibrato has become another dogma of modern singing. I know it must be carefully used in Lieder, but its lack creates clonal white voices.

Yes, indeed! Choir Conductors who pride themselves on knowing everything about singing! Two over the past few years told me not to sing with vibrato, making faces as though I had leprosy and not a cultivated voice! And I don't have a wobble either.

ZB

[Harry Powell]

I think you are being harsh on her.

Are you suggesting Reverend Powell should be kind and forgiving?

[Guido]

On the other hand, in choirs I do think vibrato should be kept on a leash: there's nothing I hate more than operatic choruses where nothing sounds in tune because the chord is oscilating around its pitches in the region of a semitone. And sometimes it's appropriate to severely limit it as here: http://grooveshark.com/#/s/Henry+Purcell+Hear+My+Prayer+O+Lord/1YTnGh?src=5 which would be unbearable with more vibrato.

I usually can't stand lieder singing where the vibrato only warms the end of each note, except in very occasional circumstances. Barbara Bonney and Sylvia McNair, both of whom I usually love when they are singing with orchestra, are sometimes (though not always) guilty of this with piano*. I forgive these two because the voices are so beautiful and the singing so intelligent. Thing is, painful though it is to admit, this is all a matter of taste, there's not actually a right answer... My dad actually hates the sound of vibrato, and I can't exactly say that he's wrong about what he likes or doesn't like.

*(e.g. Barbara Bonney released that awful recording of the Four Last Songs with piano accompaniment)

[knight66]

Harry, Haha, I wonder what happens then?

If we all agreed on it all there would be nothing to discuss and it is good to be made to think and rethink things.....which the recent discussions have indeed done for me.

Re vibrato: I was once asked at very short notice to sing some Britten church music. It was with a very small choir and the choir master kept at me until I had eliminated all trace of vibrato and then he was happy. At one point I did privately ask if we, women included, all had to render our balls to make him a happy bunny. He completely failed to grasp what I was getting at. We produced a sound that was flat in tone, rather than intonation. It had no energy to it.

On the same 'programme' we were doing the Barber Agnus Dei, Bruckner motets and some other unaccompanied pieces that I can't remember. This was for an all night peace vigil in the Epicsopal Cathedral in Edinburgh and lots of choirs were covering the 24 hour period in relays. Our spot was about 11pm to almost midnight.

What our mutt-master had failed to absorb and tell us was that the entire cathedral would would be lit by one livingroom standard lamp with a 100 watt bulb. Discovering this as we arrived, I whispered to some of the leaving choir asking if we could borrow their torches. No deal. It was both embarrassing and hilarious. The choir master stood under the standard lamp. Despite urgent whispered suggestions, he refused to allow us to group around him to try to see our music. We were cast to the outer darkness of the choir stalls.

The result may be predicted. I did my best to eliminate any vibrato; though I suspect that as we at various times got the giggles caused by the confusions of sound, that there was plenty of vibrato to go round. I was glad it was dark so that no one could identify my involvement. It must have sounded like we were singing Stockhausen for 50 minutes: a piece expressing the long night of the soul with hysterical interludes. AND the choir following us all had torches.

Mike

[Guido]

Harry, Haha, I wonder what happens then?

If we all agreed on it all there would be nothing to discuss and it is good to be made to think and rethink things.....which the recent discussions have indeed done for me.

Re vibrato: I was once asked at very short notice to sing some Britten church music. It was with a very small choir and the choir master kept at me until I had eliminated all trace of vibrato and then he was happy. At one point I did privately ask if we, women included, all had to render our balls to make him a happy bunny. He completely failed to grasp what I was getting at. We produced a sound that was flat in tone, rather than intonation. It had no energy to it.

On the same 'programme' we were doing the Barber Agnus Dei, Bruckner motets and some other unaccompanied pieces that I can't remember. This was for an all night peace vigil in the Epicsopal Cathedral in Edinburgh and lots of choirs were covering the 24 hour period in relays. Our spot was about 11pm to almost midnight.

What our mutt-master had failed to absorb and tell us was that the entire cathedral would would be lit by one livingroom standard lamp with a 100 watt bulb. Discovering this as we arrived, I whispered to some of the leaving choir asking if we could borrow their torches. No deal. It was both embarrassing and hilarious. The choir master stood under the standard lamp. Despite urgent whispered suggestions, he refused to allow us to group around him to try to see our music. We were cast to the outer darkness of the choir stalls.

The result may be predicted. I did my best to eliminate any vibrato; though I suspect that as we at various times got the giggles caused by the confusions of sound, that there was plenty of vibrato to go round. I was glad it was dark so that no one could identify my involvement. It must have sounded like we were singing Stockhausen for 50 minutes: a piece expressing the long night of the soul with hysterical interludes. AND the choir following us all had torches.

Mike

Hahaha! Agreed on the discussions. It's only through debate and trying to put my thoughts down in words that my own ideas clarify for me, which is one of the main reasons why I write opera reviews for instance.

[knight66]

On the other hand, in choirs I do think vibrato should be kept on a leash: there's nothing I hate more than operatic choruses where nothing sounds in tune because the chord is oscilating around its pitches in the region of a semitone. And sometimes it's appropriate to severely limit it as here: http://grooveshark.com/#/s/Henry+Purcell+Hear+My+Prayer+O+Lord/1YTnGh?src=5 which would be unbearable with more vibrato.

Yes, I think that is right. I have the Bohm Missa Solemnis on DG. It has an opera chorus in it and individual vlices come through, horrible. Equally, Purcell is not going to apply the same vocal sound as Berlioz. Horses for courses.

Mike

[Guido]

Yes, I think that is right. I have the Bohm Missa Solemnis on DG. It has an opera chorus in it and individual vlices come through, horrible. Equally, Purcell is not going to apply the same vocal sound as Berlioz. Horses for courses.

Mike

Yes. And Brahms Requiem without vibrato would be horrendous.

In a related category, did anyone hear the recent heinous non vibratoed Mahler 9 from Norrington? The man's a crook, the level of intellectual disonesty and historical revisionism astonishing in its brazenness.

[zamyrabyrd]

Yes. And Brahms Requiem without vibrato would be horrendous.

Thank goodness the conductor, a very intelligent chap, was not picky about individual singers' vibrato in the Brahms Requiem, June 2009. (The picture is in the box on the left and I am a small dot in the upper half.)

ZB

[Guido]

If he were stupid, it would be perhaps excusable, this whole crusade that he has, but he certainly isn't as you say, which makes him a cad and a bounder. Virtually everything he says on the subject of vibrato is utterly and demonstrably false.

[knight66]

I don't pay much attention to what he gets up to. But I am aware of the way the tide of HIP has advanced up the shoreline of Romanticism and have assumed this is about wanting to expand their repertoire with a gimmick.

When I have heard his Bruckner I felt he had not the grasp of the gigantic architecture. I did enjoy some of his Beethoven, notably Sym 2 and 8.....but that is it.

Mike

[Harry Powell]

Hilarious story, Mike. I got some similar ones from friends studying with HIP-oriented teachers.

As for historicist efforts in Romantic works, I consider them to be musicology advances to be developed musically in the future by more gifted artists. Riccardo Muti has absorbed these studies and applies them to Mozart with true musicianship.

Harry, Haha, I wonder what happens then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gIhhYHqBz4

[knight66]

Harry, I can only see a white square.

Mike