Sibelius Symphonies

[rubio]

Saraste is the chief conductor of Oslo PO, my home orchestra, and I see that 18-19 October Kullervo will be performed with Jorma Hynninen as barytone singer  .

[M forever]

You live in Oslo?

I didn't know that Saraste is their new principal conductor. That is good to hear. I was very sorry for the orchestra when I read that they couldn't come up with anything better than hiring, as replacement for Jansons, Previn, of all people, an over-the-hill-burnout deadly boring and uninvolved routine ex-"star". What a stupid idea. No wonder we haven't heard anything from then since.

[MishaK]

I own 4 and 5, and I quite like them. Tempos are daringly slow...which I love. However, I think you should get Maazel/Vienna first. It would give you a more distinct contrast to the Segerstam you already own. Maazel's Fourth, all by itself, makes the set worth owning. This is the "coldest" Fourth I've ever heard. Be sure to put on a scarf and mittens before playing it. Seriously, it creates a bleak, desolate, chilling atmosphere like no other I've heard. And the recording is outstanding. The only thing I wish Decca had done is put the cycle on four discs instead of three. That way they could have included Maazel's incomparable Tapiola too. His Tapiola did show up on a budget disc once, coupled with other short works of Sibelius. Worth seeking out.

Hey Sarge, thanks for this recommendation. I picked up the Maazel 4&7 from an amazon Marketplace seller for cheap and agree: it's an amazingly "cold" 4th. Just what I needed to cope with 90+ F Chicago weather this weekend. 

[karlhenning]

Well done, Sarge!

[rubio]

You live in Oslo?

I didn't know that Saraste is their new principal conductor. That is good to hear. I was very sorry for the orchestra when I read that they couldn't come up with anything better than hiring, as replacement for Jansons, Previn, of all people, an over-the-hill-burnout deadly boring and uninvolved routine ex-"star". What a stupid idea. No wonder we haven't heard anything from then since.

Yes, I live in Oslo. Saraste took over as their new principal conductor after Previn last autumn. It was really a mistake to hire Previn, and they didn't want to prolong his contract. There was no enthusiasm left, and he didn't excactly take any risks concerning the program. I think they received not excactly flattering critics when they visited UK with him not so long time ago. It really has been a relief to get Saraste instead, who takes more chances and has got clear ideas about how he wants the orchestra to play and what to play. There has already been some very good to excellent performances of Mahler's 5th & 6th, Bruckner's 8th and Sibelius 2nd. Last year we also had Blomstedt here who gave us an excellent Bruckner 5th.

So still it feels like this new hiring will continue to be very fruitful. Saraste says that Oslo PO's way of playing suits his style of conducting/ideas about music very much. I think Oslo PO is a very fine and enthusiastic orchestra, and they deserve a good and interested conductor. Jansons is of course an excellent conductor (BPO should have hired him instead of Rattle IMO...), and I think the Brahms and Tchaikovsky symphony cycles he made with Oslo PO are just splendid. I hope they will record something with Saraste soon.

[Sergeant Rock]

Hey Sarge, thanks for this recommendation. I picked up the Maazel 4&7 from an amazon Marketplace seller for cheap and agree: it's an amazingly "cold" 4th. Just what I needed to cope with 90+ F Chicago weather this weekend. 

Yep, better than air conditioning 

Sarge

[Greta]

Ran across this excellent article from the Finnish Music Quarterly, Sibelius: A View from the Podium

It's made up of short interviews with Berglund, Saraste, Vänskä, Salonen, Davis, Rattle, and papa Järvi, with their thoughts on conducting and interpreting Sibelius. Fascinating reading, many different aims and views on balance and tempo, Davis and Vanska with some beautiful descriptions of the music there.

A shame they didn't also talk to Blomstedt, I've decided I'm also going to go for his cycle. I think he will be a nice complement to Davis/LSO?

And a friend of mine is sending a disc of his orchestra doing the "Works for Violin and Orchestra", which includes the Swanwhite, Suite for Orchestra, Op. 54! I have never heard the Swan-White Suite at all, looking forward to that.

[Greta]

We never got around to posting links here to our threads on the old board, which are quite helpful, I return to them a lot:

Bigger & Better Sibelius (encompassing anything Sibelius)

Favorite Sibelius Symphonies Recordings

Sibelius's Kullervo (a Kullervo thread I had forgotten about! Know what I'll be reading this morning..)

Discovering Sibelius! (That was me only several months ago! Now I'm hopelessly addicted. )

[karlhenning]

Greta's Hopeless Sonic Addiction

[Greta]

I know, you can just look in this thread recently and see the evidence.....ach, what's a girl to do?

[karlhenning]

We're here for you, Greta!

[Solitary Wanderer]

Just starting on this boxset so I'll listen and read this thread with interest and hopefully contribute

[Greta]

SW is that your first set? I have that set now too, but am about to start on the Blomstedt.  You are in for a beautiful, magical journey that will reward you many times over. His music is so deep to me, even spiritual, completely unique.

I read you were going to a concert of the 5th, I think?

Here is a clip of the Finale of the 5th Symphony, Salonen with SRSO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLOig_N14Dg

Lovely staging there! 

I am enjoying the heck out of those videos, seeing the pieces conducted and played helps a lot to better understand them.

Now I would love to have the scores!

I'm starting to understand why Sibelians want to obsessively collect recordings of his symphonies, there is something about him that is beautifully ever elusive.

We can love and adore them, and search and search for interpretations that bring us closer to the "truth", though it is somewhat akin to trying to capture a bird in flight...and would you want to?

One reason I love his music so. There is some kind of eternal search there, which is to me, very profound.

[Solitary Wanderer]

SW is that your first set? I have that set now too, but am about to start on the Blomstedt.  You are in for a beautiful, magical journey that will reward you many times over. His music is so deep to me, even spiritual, completely unique.

I read you were going to a concert of the 5th, I think?

Here is a clip of the Finale of the 5th Symphony, Salonen with SRSO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLOig_N14Dg

Lovely staging there! 

I am enjoying the heck out of those videos, seeing the pieces conducted and played helps a lot to better understand them.

Now I would love to have the scores!

I'm starting to understand why Sibelians want to obsessively collect recordings of his symphonies, there is something about him that is beautifully ever elusive.

We can love and adore them, and search and search for interpretations that bring us closer to the "truth", though it is somewhat akin to trying to capture a bird in flight...and would you want to?

One reason I love his music so. There is some kind of eternal search there, which is to me, very profound.

Hi Greta:

Very nice post

Yep, its my first Sibelius boxset, but I'm already familiar with several of his pieces like the glorious Violin concerto.

I listened to En Saga and #5 last night and the words you used to describe his music were spot on; unique, beautiful, spiritual. I'll add in elusive, moving and powerful too

As I discover his symphonies I'll post my thoughts.

I agree about your point of actually seeing the pieces performed helps to understand them better.

Looking forward to the performance next week

[Sergeant Rock]

Saraste gets a top recommendation from me. This is certainly a great recording. Sarge, you know he's fast, right? 

Yes, I know...or at least had guessed it would be fast. His Sibelius I already own tends to be swift. Yesterday Mrs. Rock and I spent the evening listening to music (and sipping wine). We started with Pettersson's Seventh. Mrs. Rock said she wanted something even bleaker next. She suggested Sibelius. We listened to the Fourth (Maazel). Valse Triste and the Swan (Kord) followed and then I put on Saraste's performance of the Third. She began to frown. Four minutes into the first movement, she told me to stop it. The Third is her favorite symphony but she couldn't stand the tempo. It was way too fast for her. We began the Third again, this time with Ashkenazy (the slowest first movement I know).

Bottomline: she agrees with M and not with you and me.

It's bracing, concentrated, agile Sibelius, actually he's the quickest one I have, but he is able to pull off these quick tempi with a highly poised, focused reading and a technically superb orchestra. He and the orchestra produce a pure, lean sound that is most attractive, their fine intonation adds to this. Impressive winds. Finnish RSO actually sounds awesome here. TBH, this is the first of Saraste's work I've ever heard and was mightily impressed. Very musical, and nuanced with some interesting things going on.

He would be an excellent contrast to Davis, and actually Salonen too. Saraste sees Kullervo in a different way from those two readings, from the outset you feel the softly swirling snow and barrenness ahead. Davis sees Kullervo as a lusty, rugged journeyman, Salonen sees the dashing star of a colorful fairytale (at least in the Sony recording), while Saraste sees a haunted, chiseled figure with blazing eyes. The beauty in his Kullervo is the crystalline, sparkling kind, in the way that snow is beautiful. His fleet, uniform tempi and tight rein on the orchestra add to the relentless nature of Kullervo's journey.

The mammoth 3rd mvmt. features wonderful singing all around. The Polytech Choir delivers controlled, never forced singing with lovely dynamic shading, and are nicely hushed and otherworldly in the Gregorian-chantlike sections. Jorma Hynninen sounds great here, very lonely and pained but never over the top. And Monica Groop, who has a darkly colored tone that also works very well here. All well recorded, in a natural and vivid sound.

I really prefer Finnish singers for the choir in Kullervo, this beautiful language has some peculiar accents, and a certain softness of articulation on unaccented syllables that is extremely hard for English speakers to nail. (Hopefully the Atlanta recording will prove me wrong if I get it.) But on words like, "poika" and especially "sinisukka", they are sharply declamated in the Davis recording, whereas in the others, the latter syllables are softer, and the 2nd syllable "ni" in "sinisukka" is almost just an inflection.

Anyway, I love the Saraste, though I wouldn't be without the Davis and Salonen, to represent alternative views...

Excellent description...I definitely must get it now.

Sarge

[M forever]

We started with Pettersson's Seventh. Mrs. Rock said she wanted something even bleaker next.

Even bleaker ? I played that piece once, and I wanted to dig my brains out with a blunt rusty spoon afterwards.

Bottomline: she agrees with M and not with you and me.

Huh? What did I do wrong now?

[Greta]

Is this the right place for Kullervo discussion? As some consider it his Symphony "0". I feel another post coming on... 

We heard Järvi fils conduct Kullervo with Hynninen last year in Frankfurt. His interpretation was considerably different than his father's. It was slow, expansive like Davis I.

I saw there is a Paavo Jarvi Kullervo at Operashare, I doubt the links still work and don't remember who with, but his recording with the Stockholm Philharmonic has gotten some really positive comments here and there and I was curious if you guys had heard it?

Also I found the scores for Kullervo and ALL the Lemminkainen Legends at SheetMusicPlus.com for quite cheap, they import them from Breitkopf and Hartel, and you can even pay by check or money order. Amazing.

So, I'm listening with the libretto and am beyond following the words, and noticing now how the music narrates the events. Brilliant storytelling

And one of my big favorite parts of Kullervo is the great orchestral interlude right in the middle, after Kullervo romances his (unknown) sister, which features a seriously "groovy" relentless low brass ostinato with violins and trumpet singing above. I also like that downward gear-shift tempo change after it, into the Penderecki-ish string clusters and cymbal crash. 

So, um... does that possibly "mean" something? As obviously at that point they spend the night together, perhaps the low brass have their groove on there for a reason... 

[Sergeant Rock]

Huh? What did I do wrong now?

Nothing. My mistake. I thought you'd dissed the Saraste recordings when Greta first mentioned them and that you didn't like them any more than Mrs. Rock does. But my memory was faulty. Sorry. I just checked your old message. All you said was that they left no impression on you. That's not necessarily negative.

Sarge

[M forever]

Maybe. Or maybe not. I simply don't remember much, next to nothing about those recordings. That may not be their "fault", it could also be that I was unresponsive to them at the time. But it is not my "style" to immediately "hold it against" a recording when it does not appeal to me. Unless it's just really mediocre or bad in some or several respects and there really seems to be no reason to revisit it. I don't know why, but apparently I never did, and I don't seem to have the CDs anymore. That was a set of live recordings on Finlandia.
I do still have an RCA studio recording of the 1st with him from the late 80s that I even found and listened to just recently. But that, I am afraid to say, did not make much of an impression on me either. It is basically a competently directed, straightforward, but IMO rather superficial runthrough of the symphony, mostly, but not always competently played and rather coarse in recorded sound quality. My impression here is that this is a really superficial performance recorded at a time when tons of recordings were made everywhere, all the time, and a promising young conductor from Northern Europe had to be immediately recorded in Sibelius.
But that was 20 years ago, and I don't think I have actually heard much of Saraste's recordings since then. I don't think he made all that many either. But that Kullervo recording does sound interesting, and it appears to be much more recent, if I understood correctly.

[Greta]

I just saw these replies  Was sitting here transfixed by the 2nd's Andante. I think I like it even more now than the ultra-romantic Finale. It is so profound and moving. And I guess I'm not the only one. I edited and uploaded clips of it from the SRSO video I have, and in the ending below, Salonen is actually moved to tears at the beauty in the "hymn" section. Wow, that is powerful to see.

2nd Symphony, Andante -  Part I, Part II, Ending

Best movement of that video performance. I like that Andante because it has ideas that remind of me LSO Davis, though with not as much gravitas. Davis' LSO Andante just really slays me.  I was just revisiting it and man, I am so spoiled, it is my perfect Andante so far. It is tough for it get much better than that for me. Barbirolli/RPO is another animal. White-hot Andante, but still Davis is my favorite there with the gorgeous weighty sound he coaxes from the LSO. (Others I've heard, Rattle, Bernstein/NYP and WP.) Especially in *that* section, and the brass chorale following it, incredible. The interpretive choices Davis makes are very "deep" to me. Breathtaking ending.

Yes, I know...or at least had guessed it would be fast. His Sibelius I already own tends to be swift. Yesterday Mrs. Rock and I spent the evening listening to music (and sipping wine). We started with Pettersson's Seventh.

I LOVE Pettersson's 7th! It has a savage brass section somewhere in the middle I particularly like. Awesome piece. This is the first thing I have heard by Saraste, a friend just happened to have it. I'm listening right now to make sure I didn't lapse into hyperbole like I sometimes do when I've heard a unique recording. But I stand by it all still. Cool, clear it is, yes, seems he was going for maximum clarity and paid obviously a lot of attention to creating slender, compact textures, but it's also very musical too with beautiful color and detail.

Cool but not icy, sensitive, contemplative playing. He has some special little touches that are attractive too, like pulling out an instrument here and there to point up the countermelody, tasteful, subtle. For example, in the 3rd mvmt., in the interludes, he highlights the trombone who is playing an nice upward chromatic line that pushes the line forward. The color of the brass is a glowing gold. And the style is just so appropriate, the turn of phrase and accents, this orchestra has this music in their blood. In some ways I prefer it to Salonen's recording because while the LA Phil sounds brilliant, their playing gives the impression of more a colorful orchestral showpiece. It is, and that is no doubt a great recording, but the playing here feels so idiomatic, there is a "Nordic" clipped quality of the string playing that other orchestras I think have trouble nailing.

I keep coming back to the playing here. I didn't realize they were quite this good under him. Looking at his bio, I see he came up in that orchestra as a violinist and was with them quite a long time, this was made in 1996, at the height of his tenure I suppose. The playing is spectacular because it is so cohesive and technically on. Those winds dancing in the 4th mvmt., the dark, almost natural sound of the horns, the lean yet strong sound balanced from the bottom. For some reason, this brings to mind something like Gardiner's Philharmonia Planets, in a way, an alternative reading but so well-done and convincing.

M, if you ever find that Saraste set and don't want it...  Since I wrote the other post, I heard some of his 2nd, just as MP3, it has some of these same qualities, but it seemed like he wasn't as convinced of his own interpretation as here. A little backing away going on. But I think he creates a very interesting sound that really works in some cases, and probably less well in others.

My impression here is that this is a really superficial performance recorded at a time when tons of recordings were made everywhere, all the time, and a promising young conductor from Northern Europe had to be immediately recorded in Sibelius.

Funny because, in that article I linked to earlier, Salonen says he was pressured by CBS, at that same time period, to record "his Sibelius cycle" but resisted as it was so "obvious". He also didn't like his 5th terribly much because he felt he didn't really have time to develop his interpretation, just mainly stripped it of certain problems. There's really no reason to assume young Finnish conductors are ready to deliver convincing interpretations of this music just "because they are Finnish", it is not easy music.

But that was 20 years ago, and I don't think I have actually heard much of Saraste's recordings since then. I don't think he made all that many either.

Well, according to that article (link), he made two complete Sibelius cycles with the FRSO, and they do have a host of other recordings, Mahler 5, Stravinsky, Nielsen, various Debussy and Saariaho. I think the studio recordings are singles, not sure. I know I've been meaning to get his complete Tempest, because I don't even have that Sibelius work yet.

(How did this post get so long? M is rubbing off on me...)