Bruckner's Abbey

[Brahmsian]

I really, really love Philippe Herrweghe and Berlin RIAS Chamber Chorus/Champs-Élysées Orchestra recording of Bruckner's Mass No. 3 in F minor.  I was disappointed to see that he hasn't recorded the other two masses.  Does anyone know if there are plans for recording the other two masses, and perhaps other of Bruckner's sacred works?

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[Lilas Pastia]

JWINTER: There's a quite lengthy review at Music web : http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2008/Mar08/Bruckner_symphonies_sch3112.htm
A decidedly mixed review, but its sheer length bespeaks of a worthy enterprise.

Sorry, I forgot how to insert hyperlinks in the text

[jwinter]

JWINTER: There's a quite lengthy review at Music web : http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2008/Mar08/Bruckner_symphonies_sch3112.htm
A decidedly mixed review, but its sheer length bespeaks of a worthy enterprise.

Sorry, I forgot how to insert hyperlinks in the text

Thanks for the link!  The Amazon reviews seemed pretty positive, and at $15.97 for the set, including shipping, I figured it was worth a try.

It's coming from Germany, so it'll take a week or two, I imagine -- I'll report back when I've given it a listen. 

[Brahmsian]

Happily there's an excellent recording of the E minor mass (plus motets), well worth hearing:



But not the D minor AFAIK.   

Oh wonderful!  Thanks for that info, Soapy!     I had just done a brief search on ArkivMusic, and only saw the Mass in F minor recording, so I just assumed Herreweghe hadn't recorded any of the other masses/sacred music.  I should always remember that not everything is listed on ArkivMusic.   

[MishaK]

Heads up:

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Kubelik's phenomenal studio Bruckner 3 & 4 reissued as part of one of Sony's cheapo sets. I'm not familiar with the Mozart and Schumann recordings, but I have yet to hear something from this conductor/orchestra combo I don't like. But seriously, that Bruckner 4 is my absolute top choice of the twenty-odd I own. The codas of the outer movements have to be heard to be believed. The whole thing is broad but organically forward moving, impeccably balanced. Previously only available from Japan.

[Lilas Pastia]

Misha, I concur with your enthusiastic endorsement of Kubelik's studio recordings of 3 and 4. Top of the line both. I esp. love his way with 4, but also his choice of Oeser 1877 for 3. Glorious playing, translucent recording. I could name others for the podium, but there's no denial that Kubelik belongs right there.

I haven't heard the Mozart recordings (downloaded a long time ago, but time and listening preferences have kept them from coming down the assembly line). As for the Schumann, you're looking at worthy equals to the Bruckner recordings: they don't come any better than this. Clearly a case of less is more (as opposed to Bernstein's Schumann, which I can't stomach).

[MishaK]

As for the Schumann, you're looking at worthy equals to the Bruckner recordings: they don't come any better than this. Clearly a case of less is more (as opposed to Bernstein's Schumann, which I can't stomach).

That's good to know. I have his BPO Schumann cycle on DG and wasn't that enthusiastic about that, mostly though due to the wooly sound.

[Lilas Pastia]

The Bernstein recordings are with the VPO (WP), not the BPO. That may actually be part of the reason I don't like them !
I may be off, but I suspect that, had Bernstein played / recorded these late-carreer versions of Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms, Mahler, Sibelius, Shostakovich and Bruckner with the BP instead of the WP, the results would have been more satisfying ! Bernstein's interpretive indulgence combined with the tonal and rythmic effulgence of the WP make for strangely unfocused, unsettled, unsatisfying results. Conversely, his recordings with the Israel Philharmonic are uniformly dry and unsmiling, and equally unsatisfying. His few Amsterdam, Berlin and New York recordings of the same era are uniformly better (cf the Amsterdam Schubert and Beethoven, New-York and Berlin Mahler: all are more solidly anchored tonally as well as more solid and assertive rythmically). Of all Bernstein's Vienna recordings, only the early Beethoven cycle is on a level consistent with his artistry and genius - while still quite uneven.

Back to Bruckner: only one Mahler 9 to go (Chailly) and I'll resume Bruckner listening. More posts to come  !!

[MishaK]

The Bernstein recordings are with the VPO (WP), not the BPO.

Sorry. Lack of clarity on my part. I meant to say: I have Kubelik's earlier Schumann cycle with the BPO on DG which sounds a bit woolly. Not Lenny.

[Lilas Pastia]

No problemo. It still triggered an interesting aside 

[Lethevich]

A book I am reading includes this little note by Klemperer:

"In the last movement of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony I have made cuts. In this instance it seems to me that the composer was so full of musical invention that he went too far. Brucknerians will object, and it is certainly not my intention that these cuts should be considered as a model for others. I can only take the responsibility for my own intepretation."

It sounds fairly harmless - couldn't it be possible to enjoy a performance like this on its own merits?

[Renfield]

It sounds fairly harmless - couldn't it be possible to enjoy a performance like this on its own merits?

Sure!

[Sergeant Rock]

It sounds fairly harmless - couldn't it be possible to enjoy a performance like this on its own merits?

I think so. I've been listening to Knapp's Vienna Fifth at least once a year for the past 35 years. Despite the savage cuts in the Finale, despite the reorchestration by Franz Schalk, it's a fun listen and a historical link to Bruckner performing tradition. I just keep in mind that it doesn't have Bruckner's seal of approval.

Sarge

[Renfield]

I think so. I've been listening to Knapp's Vienna Fifth at least once a year for the past 35 years. Despite the savage cuts in the Finale, despite the reorchestration by Franz Schalk, it's a fun listen and a historical link to Bruckner performing tradition. I just keep in mind that it doesn't have Bruckner's seal of approval.

Sarge

Is that a quasi-Gurnian tradition you have, there?

To elaborate on my previous post, I really don't mind listening to a performance with (reasonable) alterations, in so far as it's a performances of something different than, in this case, Bruckner's 8th. It's Bruckner's 8th, ed. Klemperer, and I treat it like that.

Now, if we're talking cuts as in 'I cut out half the slow movement', I get a little less charitable.

[Lethevich]

I suppose I ask because there are so many good Bruckner recordings available, and so with my modern scholarship-leaning mindset, if I were to pick between two great recordings of the 8th, and one was cut, before I read that Klemperer statement I would not have hesitated to pick up the un-cut one. I suppose it's made me consider the alternative POV, or at least become aware of it. It is all to easy to assume that older performances including cuts were the result of a bumblingly naive performance tradition, unthinkingly reliant on over-zealous editors, corrupt editions, score pages being lots on trains, etc, but I suppose that often it was also an aesthetic decision by the conductors involved.

[Renfield]

but I suppose that often it was also an aesthetic decision by the conductors involved.

Absolutely. And this impression extends to unconventional interpretative choices, as well, for me (e.g. Celibidache).

Which is why my original predilection for buying CDs by conductor first and foremost has turned into a conscious modus operandi, over the years, of deciding whether a conductor has sound aesthetic judgement, and then trusting them.


Edit: Sort of like virtue ethics, if you're familiar with the term. Virtue Aesthetics.

[Drasko]

but I suppose that often it was also an aesthetic decision by the conductors involved.

Definitely. Klemperer is very good example. He wrote (and recorded) new, quiet coda for Mendelssohn's 3rd Symphony, since he believed that composer's up-beat coda was Mendelssohn giving in to popular demand.

[Lilas Pastia]

Definitely. Klemperer is very good example. He wrote (and recorded) new, quiet coda for Mendelssohn's 3rd Symphony, since he believed that composer's up-beat coda was Mendelssohn giving in to popular demand.

Not sure. A quiet ending to a symphony would have been resolutely original and not a little bit defiant. I revere Mendelssohn, but defiant is not a quality I associate with him. Why would he have given in to popular demand when he was in fact defining his era's 'taste' ? If ever a composer was in sync with his times, Mendelssohn certainly qualified.

Klemperer did record the standard text for EMI but he couldn't help put a perverse twist to that coda: it sounds like a musical depiction of a nightmare chase in slow motion  - as if he was determined to isolate it - secate it in fact from the preceding 35 minutes. I've heard that BRSO 'Scottish' bizarrery and am inclined to think he seriously erred - a rare occurence, but when he did, he was spectacular: had us all flat on our backs (Mahler 7, Bruckner 8, and oddities like his valium take on Beethoven 9:II).

[Geo Dude]

I have a few Bruckner recordings on hand (Jochum 3 and 7, Giulini 9) but would like to pick up a full set of the symphonies and really dig in to these works; preferably at budget price.  The Karajan and Wand sets both seem interesting, and I am interested in thoughts on those, but I'm also open to other suggestions.

[Daverz]

I have a few Bruckner recordings on hand (Jochum 3 and 7, Giulini 9) but would like to pick up a full set of the symphonies and really dig in to these works; preferably at budget price.  The Karajan and Wand sets both seem interesting, and I am interested in thoughts on those, but I'm also open to other suggestions.

I suggest Skrowaczewski for a full set.  You can get it for $50 on Amazon.