Jorge Luis Borges

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Pretty much like the Composer Discussion Board is for "discussing the life and works of particular composers", I offer you this thread for discussing the life and works of Jorge Luis Borges (what I actually mean is: You know what to do! )

I recall at least three members of GMG mentioning Borges. Add me to the count and that makes four of us who might be interested (I'd say that's not a bad prospect at all! ) Of course, everybody is kindly invited to participate.

For those of you who don't know about Borges, there's always Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Luis_Borges) and I think this site (http://www.themodernword.com/borges/borges_works.html) is worth a visit.

To keep things interesting (I hope), I'll propose discussion of particular Works, copies of which I'll provide for your convenience (in both original Spanish and English versions). So you don't need to actually know the Works beforehand; just read and you'll be ready to play.

Shall we start with Pierre Menard, autor del Quijote?

[val]

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Pretty much like the Composer Discussion Board is for "discussing the life and works of particular composers", I offer you this thread for discussing the life and works of Jorge Luis Borges (what I actually mean is: You know what to do! )

Shall we start with Pierre Menard, autor del Quijote?

"Pierre Menard" is one of his most intersting novels. To write again the Don Quijote, word for word, is not, as Borges recognizes, an impossible task. It only needs an infinite time. But the phrases, in Menard, although the same as in Cervantes, have now a new meaning. Centuries of historical events (among them, like Borges says, the Don Quijote itself) give to concepts that were only rhetorical for Cervantes a new and controversial sense, as it happens with the concept of History.

[bhodges]

I'm a big fan of Borges (although I don't know how much time I'll have to chime in here), whom I first read in Spanish years ago.  However, when I started reading some of the short stories (in Ficciones) they so eluded me in their original language (e.g., "Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" and "The Circular Ruins") that I had to go back-and-forth between Spanish and English to get the gist of his talents.

Quite an amazing writer.  This might spur me to revisit some of his books.

--Bruce

[MishaK]

Borges actually wrote one of my favorite short stories, which I think is uncannily appropriate for discussion here at GMG as its central problem applies quite well to record collecting and recordings in general. The story is "Fuñes, the Memorious." In this story, the central character is afflicted with such a precise perception and memory that the existing vocabulary is insufficient for him to categorize the nuances in which various things change over time. So he invents different words for, e.g., the dog at 9am vs. the dog at 3pm. He spends his entire waking time recording and cataloguing without ever actually getting a moment to live and be human. It always struck me how in a way with the ever increasing recorded archives of classical music we are becoming a bit like Fuñes in that we are afflicted with a burgeoning audio archive against which everything is measured. Every new artist is measured against decades of "reference recordings" rendering both the audience unable to hear the artist for who he is and also causing the artist to be hamstrung by the pressure to meet expectations of past excellence, based on recordings of often interpretively contradictory old masters.

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I'm a big fan of Borges

I know! You are one of the "Three Amigos" I mentioned in the OP

(although I don't know how much time I'll have to chime in here)

Don't worry. I don't expect this thread to move at a fast pace. This certainly isn't the place for quick one-liners and "cool" smileys. Besides, I'm an awfully sloooow writer myself... So there's no rush at all. Time doesn't exist in this thread. We have all Eternity ahead (provided at least two of us are willing to play )

However, when I started reading some of the short stories (in Ficciones) they so eluded me in their original language (e.g., "Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" and "The Circular Ruins") that I had to go back-and-forth between Spanish and English to get the gist of his talents.

Many (and I mean a whole lot) of native Spanish speakers have problems reading Borges. Even in Argentina most people never read one line of his, or gave up after a few tries (in many cases, just one try...... Ask Manuel. That Country sucks! ) It's not easy reading, it's not "popular", it can be pretty demanding for the reader... At least, that's how it seems to be for many people... I think Borges "difficulty" will be one of the recurring themes of this thread (at least I still have things to say about that)

Quite an amazing writer.  This might spur me to revisit some of his books.

Great! Why don't you start with "Pierre Menard" and share your thoughts with us?

Oops! I have to go now (It seems time does exist, after all ) I'll be back later to comment on Val and O Mensch posts.



And remember we have a specific short story to discuss! It's been downloaded three times so far. I expect one every ten downloaders to actually take the trouble to come and post. So come on! Download, read and be one of the lucky ones!

[bhodges]

Borges actually wrote one of my favorite short stories, which I think is uncannily appropriate for discussion here at GMG as its central problem applies quite well to record collecting and recordings in general. The story is "Fuñes, the Memorious." In this story, the central character is afflicted with such a precise perception and memory that the existing vocabulary is insufficient for him to categorize the nuances in which various things change over time. So he invents different words for, e.g., the dog at 9am vs. the dog at 3pm. He spends his entire waking time recording and cataloguing without ever actually getting a moment to live and be human. It always struck me how in a way with the ever increasing recorded archives of classical music we are becoming a bit like Fuñes in that we are afflicted with a burgeoning audio archive against which everything is measured. Every new artist is measured against decades of "reference recordings" rendering both the audience unable to hear the artist for who he is and also causing the artist to be hamstrung by the pressure to meet expectations of past excellence, based on recordings of often interpretively contradictory old masters.

This sounds totally fascinating (I haven't read it) and the analogy to the increasing avalanche of recordings is interesting, too.  (And as an aside, I say the following not flippantly but...perhaps yet another good reason not to record something already done by ten zillion other people.)

I have some friends who tape things off television, almost rabidly (i.e., classical music), and carefully catalog the videotapes, which now number around 4,000.    They make very neat labels for everything, and then add a new number and description into a 3-ring binder with the contents.  Now they are involved in yet another time-consuming project: transferring all of these to DVDs.  While I admire their passion, not to mention meticulousness, I always wonder: just how much time are they able to spend actually enjoying their collection?  It seems that the archival instinct has taken over.

--Bruce

[bwv 1080]

My two favorites are

Three Versions of Judas - where it is Judas, not Jesus who is the real savior - Jesus only sacrificed his body, while Judas sacrificed his honor

and

the Lottery of Babylon - The citizens of Babylon get bored with their lottery which has only positive outcomes so the add negative ones and eventually the whole lottery becomes so complex it is indistinguishable from real life

Although I am also partial to The Cruel Redeemer Lazarus Morrell

[bhodges]

And remember we have a specific short story to discuss! It's been downloaded three times so far. I expect one every ten downloaders to actually take the trouble to come and post. So come on! Download, read and be one of the lucky ones!

Four times, now  .

And I forgot about "The Lottery of Babylon" -- that's a great one.

--Bruce

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"Pierre Menard" is one of his most intersting novels. To write again the Don Quijote, word for word, is not, as Borges recognizes, an impossible task. It only needs an infinite time. But the phrases, in Menard, although the same as in Cervantes, have now a new meaning. Centuries of historical events (among them, like Borges says, the Don Quijote itself) give to concepts that were only rhetorical for Cervantes a new and controversial sense, as it happens with the concept of History.

And that is one of the most interesting ideas found in this short story (Borges never wrote a novel, Val!  ). This "technique": "The deliberate anachronism and the erroneous attribution". Reading Don Quixote as if it were by Pierre Menard; listening the Emperor concerto as if it were by Paul McCartney (read this post, and since you are there scroll down to find Larry Rinkel's post)

Now, this "new meaning" is a creation of the reader, so I'll say this "technique" is, actually, more like a Universal Law. There are as many Don Quixotes as there are readers of Don Quixote. There are as many Emperors as there are listeners. There are as many Universes as there are creatures perceiving it.

[Iconito]

Borges actually wrote one of my favorite short stories, which I think is uncannily appropriate for discussion here at GMG as its central problem applies quite well to record collecting and recordings in general. The story is "Fuñes, the Memorious." In this story, the central character is afflicted with such a precise perception and memory that the existing vocabulary is insufficient for him to categorize the nuances in which various things change over time. So he invents different words for, e.g., the dog at 9am vs. the dog at 3pm. He spends his entire waking time recording and cataloguing without ever actually getting a moment to live and be human. It always struck me how in a way with the ever increasing recorded archives of classical music we are becoming a bit like Fuñes in that we are afflicted with a burgeoning audio archive against which everything is measured. Every new artist is measured against decades of "reference recordings" rendering both the audience unable to hear the artist for who he is and also causing the artist to be hamstrung by the pressure to meet expectations of past excellence, based on recordings of often interpretively contradictory old masters.

"Funes, the Memorious" (I'm used to see "n" instead of "ñ", but this is the first time I see the opposite mistake ) is great and I think it could be our next subject of discussion, as soon as we are done with "Pierre Menard" (that will be like... 12 hours ago )  All I'll say right now is that I don't quite see the connection you make (which doesn't mean you are wrong, of course). Consider this:

He was, let us not forget, almost incapable of general, platonic ideas. It was not only difficult for him to understand that the generic term "dog" embraced so many unlike specimens of differing sizes and different forms; he was disturbed by the fact that a dog at three-fourteen (seen in profile) should have the same name as the dog at three-fifteen (seen from the front)

One single CD would be an infinite collection to Funes! (I'll post it here soon)

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My two favorites are

Three Versions of Judas - where it is Judas, not Jesus who is the real savior - Jesus only sacrificed his body, while Judas sacrificed his honor

and

the Lottery of Babylon - The citizens of Babylon get bored with their lottery which has only positive outcomes so the add negative ones and eventually the whole lottery becomes so complex it is indistinguishable from real life

Although I am also partial to The Cruel Redeemer Lazarus Morrell

Fine choices! 

(so this IS the place for one-liners and "cool" smileys!  )

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Four times, now  .

Yes. I expect 0.4 new posts soon! 

[MishaK]

"Funes, the Memorious” (I’m used to see “n” instead of “ñ”, but this is the first time I see the opposite mistake )

Sorry, I was typing from memory in the office. You are right.

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Sorry, I was typing from memory in the office. You are right.

In the context of "Funes, the Memorious", any joke involving memory would be extremely cheap and easy, so I'll hold myself (and hereby declare such jokes out of topic. )

BTW, O (I'm not sure I have to clarify this, but I'm doing it anyway) I only mentioned the "ñ" issue because I found it funny to see "ñ" instead of "n" when the opposite is far more common ("nino" instead of "niño", "Munoz" instead of "Muñoz", etc) But I've never meant to laugh at you (even correct you) and there's certainly nothing for you to be sorry about.

Now, here is "Funes, the Memorious" for everybody to download and (I hope) enjoy and (it wouldn't hurt) come here and post his impressions. Again, I'm offering both Spanish and English versions.

This doesn't mean discussion on "Pierre Menard, Author of Don Quixote" is closed (has it even started yet? ). We just have two specific Works to talk about now.

About the title... I read in "Collected Fictions" that the world "memorious" doesn't exist in English (and my spell-checker agrees) Here's the quote:

This story has generally appeared under the tide "Funes the Memorious," and it must be the brave (or fool hardy) translator who dares change such an odd and memorable title. Nor would the translator note (and attempt to justify) his choice of a translation except in unusual circumstances. Here, however, the title in the original Spanish calls for some explanation. The title is "Funes el memorioso"; die word memorioso is not an odd Spanish word; it is in fact perfectly common, if somewhat colloquial. It simply means "having a wonderful or powerful memory," what in English one might render by the expression "having a memory like an elephant." The beauty of the Spanish is diat the entire long phrase is compressed into a single word, a single adjective, used in the original title as an epithet: Funes die Elephant-Memoried. (The reader can see that diat translation won't do.) The word "memorisi" is perhaps die closest thing that common English yields up widiout inventing a new word such as "memorious," which strikes the current translator as vaguely Lewis Carroll-esque, yet "memorisi" has somediing vaguely show business about it, as though Funes worked vaudeville or the carnival sideshows. The French tide of this story is the lovely eighteendi-century-sounding "Funes ou La Mémoire"; with a nod to JLB's great ad­mirer John Bardi, I have chosen "Funes, His Memory."

The funny thing is that I can't find "memorisi" in the dictionary, so I don't know how well it qualifies as "common English"... And if somebody can explain to me where this thing ("die" for "the", "diat" for "that", "widiout" for "without"...) is coming from, I'm interested... Anyway, the version I'm posting is not that one

[MishaK]

About the title... I read in "Collected Fictions" that the world "memorious" doesn't exist in English (and my spell-checker agrees) Here's the quote:

The funny thing is that I can't find "memorisi" in the dictionary, so I don't know how well it qualifies as "common English"... And if somebody can explain to me where this thing ("die" for "the", "diat" for "that", "widiout" for "without"...) is coming from, I'm interested... Anyway, the version I'm posting is not that one

If it isn't a word it's certainly a plausible enough neologism using common enough morphemes to be instantly understandable.

[sidoze]

this is rather off-topic but I'm about to start The Invention of Morel by Adolfo Bioy Casares. Borges wrote the foreword for it, and, like Octavio Paz, called it a perfect novel. Apparently Resnais used it for the basis of his film, Last Year in Marienbad, which is why I'm going to read it soon.

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this is rather off-topic but I'm about to start The Invention of Morel by Adolfo Bioy Casares. Borges wrote the foreword for it, and, like Octavio Paz, called it a perfect novel. Apparently Resnais used it for the basis of his film, Last Year in Marienbad, which is why I'm going to read it soon.

It's not that out of topic, really. And I didn't know about that film so, thank you! I'll check it out. Bioy Casares was somehow eclipsed by Borges, but what a good writer he was. In fact, he writes so well that you may not realize it at first... I mean the story unfolds before your eyes effortlessly, as if it were just happening. His prose is pristine. With Borges I found myself marvelling about almost every word, every phrase... Don't get me wrong: I love that! But Bioy has a different style. He's mainly a story-teller. He doesn't want you to notice how well he writes. He wants to be invisible. He wants the story told. And if you ever tried to write a story, you know how difficult that is! But he makes it look so simple...

I hope you'll enjoy The Invention of Morel. Don't forget to report back!

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If it isn't a word it's certainly a plausible enough neologism using common enough morphemes to be instantly understandable.

I take you are talking about "memorious" (not "memorisi")? I do agree. Neologism or not, I think it's clear enough. But this translator was so worried that I just had to mention it...

By any chance, do you know what this "die/diat/widiout" thing is all about? It's the first time I see those...

[m_gigena]

"Pierre Menard" is one of his most intersting novels. To write again the Don Quijote, word for word, is not, as Borges recognizes, an impossible task. It only needs an infinite time.

Infinite hours is too much... I would say 14 days is enough ( ).

[longears]

"Pierre Menard, Author of Don Quixote" is memorable, indeed, but my personal favorite is "The Library of Babel."