Blind Comparison: Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique

[mc ukrneal]

Round 1: Group C Results
Now here's a piece I listened to a lot when I was growing up, but have probably listened only 2-3 times the past 10-15 years. It would be interesting to list in each version, when they are posted, what kind of bell they used in the last movement.  The range of different instruments is surprising, and created different impacts. I'm sure I've misidentified some of them too.  C5 struck me as the most interesting by far, despite the sound. C2, C3 and C6 each has some interesting stuff going on, but none was as interesting as C5. The rest I didn't care for so much.
My Rankings:  C5, C2, C6, C3, C4, C1

C1:  Opening of this clip is too laid back and dull. It picks up a bit of energy as it gets to the more exciting sections. But then it gets dull again. I am not a fan of this first excerpt. I sense no purpose or direction in it. On to the second clip - and no real change. Everything seems monochrome to me.   Ranking:  6

C2:  Already, more energy and contrast among the different sections. This one builds drama, where C1 did not (though I felt there was room for more).  Second clip continues pretty much in the same vein. I like the impact much more here. Really wanted to hear the rest!  Ranking:  2

C3:  First portion could have used more contrast. It seems to blend together a bit, though better than C1. There are some nice 'psychedelic' like effects that work nicely here. The use of a piano sound instead of bells is interesting, but less effective in some ways (though the low vibration is ominous indeed).  Ranking: 4

C4: Doesn't start promising, but then when it picks up speed, I like it. This one gives you more contrast, which I feel is desperately needed in this part of the clip. Sometimes the unison seems off too.   More of the same in the second clip, though the bells sound too anemic, while the brass really shine. Ranking: 5

C5: Now this is what I'm talking about. Yeah, the sound is not so great at the beginning (though it does improve somewhat), but the phrasing is so much more nuanced than the previous versions. This holds my interest far more than the others despite the sound. This has more than one instrument with the bell plays (or is it multiple bells?) – best of all worlds!   Ranking: 1

C6: Nice sound and impact, though tutti seems a hair out of synch. Sometimes I would wish for more nuance, but there is a lot to thrill here.  The bell takes a middle ground, but sounds full and ominous. I think the orchestra sometimes plays too loud without contrast, which makes it less attractive than some of the others. Ranking: 3

[madaboutmahler]

That was very quick, Neal! Thank you very much for your vote and the interesting comments! If you ever wish to do another group as well over the next 3 weeks that we have for Round 1, please don't hesitate to ask!

Thanks for the link to Group A, Daniel! First week of December sounds fine to me. Tomorrow night I'll be hearing the symphony live here in Delft, played by a local orchestra, consisting of very good amateurs and professionals...

Hope you enjoyed it! How was it?

[I ended up converting the wmv to individual flacs with Audacity.]

Glad to hear your problem was solved. Sorry I couldn't respond to your question, I had never heard of that software before.....

Group B shall be out as soon as possible! Thank you for your patience.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Hi, Daniel! Apart from the Symphonie Fantastique last night's concert in Delft consisted of Chabrier's Españaand Saint-Saëns' Cello Concerto. The Chabrier was a bit too leaden-footed, it requires quick and rhythmically-precise playing, which the (part amateur) orchestra couldn't completely manage. The Cello Concerto was pleasant enough, with one quite magical passage for the string section, which had a Mozartian elegance and simplicity. As for the Berlioz, that came off well. There were a few rough patches and the string sound could have been fuller, but the main thing is - the conductor had a clear sense of the score and the excitement and newness of this incredible score came across. I really enjoyed it.

[madaboutmahler]

Glad to hear that you enjoyed it, Johan!

[Brian]

I'm not ready with my answers yet - just wanted to preserve, somewhere searchable and somewhat permanent, my realization that Schubert's String Quintet in C D956 would be a great piece for this game. I love the piece with a kind of undying fire, but find it very hard to listen to recordings without wanting them in some tiny niggling way to be perfected...

Maybe something for summer/autumn 2013.

[TheGSMoeller]

I'm not ready with my answers yet - just wanted to preserve, somewhere searchable and somewhat permanent, my realization that Schubert's String Quintet in C D956 would be a great piece for this game. I love the piece with a kind of undying fire, but find it very hard to listen to recordings without wanting them in some tiny niggling way to be perfected...

Maybe something for summer/autumn 2013.

I would love to see more chamber comparisons in the future. Its quite possible there is more room for individual interpretation with chamber works.

[madaboutmahler]

Have now sent out the link for Group B, thank you for your patience!

Very excited to read what you all think!

[aukhawk]

Group B    -     2 >-- 6 > 1 > 3 >-- 4 > 5
I like B2 best by quite a long way, OTOH B4 and B5 seem like no-hopers to me.   B6, B1, B3 all very different but kinda 'joint 2nd' really.  More below but other group B judges will want to skip this for now ...

=======

It feels like about 15 years since I last listened to this music.  So I played right through one of the two versions I have 'for reference' before starting on these samples.

Listening to Movement 1 first, it seemed to me that B1 and B5 were somewhat similar in approach, being 'romantic' interpretations with lots of tempo changes.  B1 is the more extreme of the two, and does have some beautiful playing and well recorded - the frequent tremolo effects in the strings work better here than in any other version - a bit goose-bumpy!  B5 is just too slow overall, there's a lot of attention to detail but sometimes the performers seem half-asleep.  And the recording is lifeless too.

Given the program attached to the piece by Berlioz himself, this 'romantic' approach is obviously completely justified - however listening to it purely as music I personally prefer a more 'straight ahead' style, as found in the other four samples ...

B2 just gets on with things, medium tempo, straight down the middle, no nonsense.  I love the sustained 'pedal' in the basses, about a minute before the idée fixe comes in.  Later the general impression is of lightness and precision.  I mark this top (for this first movement).

B4 is generally similar.  This sounds like a showcase style recording, rich, spotlit and in a huge acoustic, it all feels a bit operatic, 'late romantic' rather than 'cutting edge' Berlioz.
B6 sounds like a very slick orchestra indeed, lots of precision and overall the fastest of the group, just a tad lacking in character.  Second though, behind B2.

B3 I left until last because the first 5 seconds were enough to set this one apart from all the rest, apparently a smaller orchestra and (I suspect) period instruments.  I like it but feel a bit aware of some of the soloists struggling with their instruments on occasion - the horns for example.  I mark it 3rd though, a bit ahead of B1 and well ahead of B4 and B5.

Going on to Movement 5 - well it seems a bit extreme to rule out an entire performance just because of one single feature - but if the BELL is so obviously wrong, then I'm sorry but ...

... and this is B3.  In most other respects I really rather like it, the various episodes are very well-defined and played a bit 'edgy' which I think is essential here.  But the bell just sounds like a pub "time gentlemen please" and is far to close in the mix.  Demoted in the pecking order, rank: 4

B1 is similar, a lot of good stuff, but the playing is a bit too refined, no real sense of the witches' sabbath.  The bell is very distant, but this actually works rather well as an integral part of the musical fabric.  B1 has grown on me a bit, rank: 3

B2 sounds menacing from the start, in a way that none of the others do.  Risks are taken, which is good - the Dies Irae is played sardonically, with vibrato, almost Russian-sounding (might this be a bass trombone?).  The bell sounds nicely cracked - best bell sound of the bunch - a bit too close, dominating the music.  Ranking: 1 - and by some margin.

B4 sounds altogether too luxurious, a big powerful car barely out of 2nd gear.  The bell doesn't have the 'cracked' sound I want to hear.  (To be fair, I don't think the score specifies a 'cracked' effect.)  All too smooth, ranking: 5

B5, well this does sound like a top orchestra, as far as I can tell through the mushiness of what sounds like a tired old recording.  Bell not cracked.  Doesn't interest me, ranking: 6

B6 after a slow start we get some fast and precise playing that all sounds just a bit too easy, from what sounds like a top band, well recorded, bell just passes muster.  This is my runner-up, but it's a long way behind B2, for me, rank: 2.

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you very much for your vote and interesting comments, Francis!

Shall we call the voting deadline for this round the 4th January? Can always be extended if needed.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

So - this first round, instead of the coming weekend, will end at the beginning of next year?

[Brian]

A six-week extension hardly seems necessary to me. I'm derelict so far but I was planning to listen to my group tonight and tomorrow night. I've been pregaming with other Berlioz stuff today, after all.

[Sergeant Rock]

Thank you very much for your vote and interesting comments, Francis!

Shall we call the voting deadline for this round the 4th January? Can always be extended if needed.

Sounds good to me. First round 4 Jan. Second round deadline July 4th....no, make that July 5th. Don't want to interfere with the American holiday. And the Final round the first week of December 2013 

Sarge

[TheGSMoeller]

What's the holdup? 

Obviously if more time is needed then I'm sure it won't be a problem. But just know that you're missing out on some awesome sound bites that will rock your world!

I'm pumped! Let's go listen! [runs quickly, realizes nobody is following]

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Sarge - the Voice of Sanity.

[madaboutmahler]

ooops.... I did mean the 4th December. The effect of having so much fun playing musicals every day of the week! 

Is that alright with everyone?

[Sergeant Rock]

ooops.... I did mean the 4th December.

"I knows it." --Stymie 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Quote from: madaboutmahler on Today at 00:09:07

ooops.... I did mean the 4th December. The effect of having so much fun playing musicals every day of the week! 

Is that alright with everyone?

All right with me.

[Brian]

There will be an automatic deduction of 0.5 for any recording with sucky chimes in the Dies irae.

A1: Low-level, had to crank the volume up. Oboe sounds American. Really really ethereal floaty strings. My impression in the introduction is serious orchestral precision, calmly controlled atmosphere, and well-balanced ensemble in a very recent recording. Possibly even Janowski/Pittsburgh.

When the motto theme is introduced, I appreciate the precision of the "heartbeats" in the lower strings. Their strength reminds me of the first time my mom heard this symphony on a car stereo: when we got to this section, she thought something was wrong with the engine. The violins are quite glassy. This could be compression for the audio file, the recording, or the orchestra.

In the final movement, things go fairly well but I'm not a big fan of the clarinet soloist's tone. Great brass, good clarity of sound. The chimes are baaarely on the edge of being tolerable, but they're still too high-pitched. I think even more terror could be read into the Dies irae.

I wouldn't mind hearing more from this, but I also wouldn't mind not. 6.5 of 10

A2: This sounds live, and right from the winds' opener the playing bleeds atmosphere. Perfect use of pauses. A bit quicker pace, which I'm okay with. I'm also okay with some of the separation between violin groups since I understand this is live, and since the pace is fairly well heated-up. The first movement sounds like it will be a winner, but I again here spots of vinegary intonation. I guess if this is a French orchestra all lapses would be forgiven, right? Sigh... everybody should take the repeats. I won't dock points, but **I WILL dock points for missed repeats in the March.

Final movement: whoa fastness! Like, a lot of fastness. Oh DAMN the French horn solo at 22:48 is AWESOME. And the witches make a godawful racket. I am truly digging this recording, because for all its flaws in ensemble it's underscoring just how important character, and by character I mean lunacy, is in nearly every bar of this symphony! Aaaah nooo, I was going to give an 8.5 but we have a sucky chimes alert.

Still, eminently worthy. 8 of 10

A3: Period instruments! The oboe's a dead giveaway even before the strings enter. The introduction is frankly a little bit bland and unmysterious. I do love the French horns at around 30'. The main allegro feels rather Schuberty in this rendition, and since I'd never thought of the music in connection with Schubert before, I'll give them credit for bringing off an original interpretation.

The tremolos to start the finale are outstandingly creepy; the cellos and basses superb, sounding a bit like a waterfall or something. The winds sound weirdly recessed in the witch's entrance. I guess the orchestra as a whole doesn't have the heft I'm used to. Whoa! Those chimes sound like Tibetan gongs or something. They are definitely quite unusual in their effect. Guess that makes this Norrington/London Classical Players.

Can't say I like this enough to endorse it, HIPpie that I am. 6 of 10

A4: Older, this is. More flexibly done, this is. A very promising allegro it is indeed, building on an introduction which didn't strike me as great or terrible. Oooh, yes, the allegro is very pointy and promises some great hysteria to come.

Another finale off to a speedy start, but this features really terrific orchestral playing, a huge timpani sound backing up the clarinet's entrance, and a woodwind group of whom the crazed clarinet is somehow the least assertive member. Oh god the mocking laughter from the violins and then the utter nuttiness of the fall into the Dies irae! Yeah this is gonna advance. C'mon chimes c'mon... wow, the chimes sound from multiple places in the soundstage. Pretty crummy editing by the engineers. But they don't sound lame! The blatty tubas are not ideal by any means, but they are kinda funny. The brass sounds Russian. Like, really Russian.

Not lacking in character, that's for sure! 8.5 of 10

A5: After A4 this is a sober wake-up, that's for sure. It's very normal: very pretty orchestra, very sweet violin tone, the introduction ticks boxes without sending me on a trip. Of course, A4's intro wasn't great shakes either. The allegro is again perfectly competent, but I'll rank it below A1's.

Finale: more precise playing, but not much mystery at all. X-ray like opening. Ooh, I do like the timpani, though, and the oily but honestly imprecise clarinet. This is in a dead heat with A1, and the chimes might decide it. Hmm, somewhat wimpy, but not full-on wimpy. Again comparable. This recording even has A1's same strengths and weaknesses.

For some reason I feel more curious about this than about A1, though. Not sure why. Might just be the divided violins. 7 of 10

A6: This is another 'eh' recording, newish, good orchestra, not too much character. The allegro isn't that assertive or feverish. I had to consciously click back to this tab and start typing because otherwise I was going to listen to the whole thing without making a single comment. That could be construed as a good thing - nothing's wrong with it.

Wait, yes there is. The final movement is another snooze, with a nearly dainty clarinet. -0.5 for wimpy chimes. I'm not able to endorse this at all. 4 of 10

1. A4
2. A2
3. A5
4. A1
5. A3
6. A6

[TheGSMoeller]

Great comments, Brian! Thank you!

And hey, I sent you a PM a few days ago, did you get it?

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you from me too, Brian - great comments!